By hoops on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:57 pm:

Has anyone had prolozone treatment instead of prolotherapy? It uses the same technique as prolotherapy but uses ozone as the injectable solution. It claims that it is painful from the shots for the first 5-10 minutes after you have them, but does not cause the inflammation and pain of regular solutions like dextrose or sodium m. I do not know if it works. But if there was a solution that healed and was not as painful and did not have to cause inflammation it would be better for all of us. I think we should all start asking our prolotherapists about it. If anyone knows where I could write to in the government to research it, please let me know. It is long overdue to spend some funding on joint pain and relief. I have sent the class information to all the prolotherapists in my state in the hopes that someone will take the seminar. So far a doctor from Las Vegas is touting it and is teaching a seminar on it in April of 2004. For more information, type in prolozone and look under oxygen healing therapies to find the seminar in California. I hope this would offer a less painful approach for joint problems for us all.

By Greg on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 03:49 pm:

Sounds interesting, unfortunately, prolotherapy works by CAUSING inflammation. Therefore, if there is no inflammation, there is no impetus for fibroblasts to lay down new collagen, and thus, there is no strengthening of the ligament. I have seen no studies at all on this therapy as of yet, and would caution anyone who is thinking of receiving this treatment until there is more definitive evidence of it's safety and efficacy.

Greg

By hoops on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 06:16 am:

Greg,
Most of the studies are unfortunately in Italian. It has been used since 1985 for treatment of herniated spinal discs, however, now they are using it for all types of pain and was invented by a orthopedic surgeon. It is called discosan in Italy. If you type in discosan there is data on how it works. Like everything it sounds great on the internet but does it really work? I spoke with a person that had both types of shots, regular prolo vs. prolo w/ozone. They said the ozone was far less painful. However, I do not know the effectiveness of the treatment because it is so new in the U. S. and each person's condition is totally unique.

By Greg on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 02:34 pm:

Hoops,

Thank you for the input. I will look further into this treatment. I have no doubt that ozone may be less painful, but my point was that the effectiveness of prolotherapy depends on the pain involved with the procedure and recovery from procedure. This was why I would caution people like us at this point. Thank you again,

Greg

By Mua-Dib on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 02:14 pm:

You think Prolo is painful ?

I don't think it is painful at all and I've had it all over my body but then again my experinces are different from probably most.

My only interest in this thread is whether this prolozone is effective, if it is how many treatments are required before it starts causing regeneration or feedback and how much it actually costs to get done.

From whats been said it sounds like this treatment takes a lot longer to work, or doesn't work at all , if it did then why wasn't that person you talked to ( Hoops ) able to tell you how effective it was ?

Keep up the good work guys I will look into this myself and post any useful information I find.

MD

By hoops on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:26 am:

Dear Mua-Dib,
If you read the dialogue, Hoops is trying to see if anyone has used this solution for prolotherapy vs. the dextrose, sodium m or PG2. It is not a debate. It is a fact finding exercise. It is called discosan in Europe and has been used for 20 years there.

I can only speculate that there are probably more case studies in Europe on discosan (that was created by an orthopedic surgeon in Italy in 1985) than sodium m, dextrose and PG2 combined. But, how do we get to this data in the U. S.?

Who knows what works. I had prolotherapy with dextrose for a year and it did not work for me. I tried sodim m three times and nearly ended up in the emergency room from the inflammation (lasted 5 weeks).

Just trying to get more information on treatments that may help. Don't shoot the messenger.

By babs on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:35 am:

Dear Mua Dib,
If you have had five years of hell from prolotherapy and neurocranial restruct. as stated under some of your other dialogue than why are you saying it is not painful? It sounds like prolotherapy did not work for you.

By mua dib on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:53 am:

The actual injections were not painful, the effects they had on me were , or should I say the disasters.

The Prolotheray was not the problem the lack of understanding of it's affect on my body was.

Prolotherapy did work for me in the sense then that it did tighten my ligaments, it did not work in the sense it was not done in the right areas with the right amounts and had no lastibility i.e. I had to return for follow up injections.

In short then Prolotherapy is depending on how many areas you are talking about, what your expectations are, are at best really on a short term solution to long term problem.

Neuro Cranial Reconsturction is another ball game, it is downright dangerous esp when the doctors don't even know themselves the full side effects of what their doing.

By the way the hell has not ended and might never will, it is still ongoing even as we speak.

Mua Dib

By mua dib on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:55 am:

The actual injections were not painful, the effects they had on me were , or should I say the disasters.

The Prolotheray was not the problem the lack of understanding of it's affect on my body was.

Prolotherapy did work for me in the sense then that it did tighten my ligaments, it did not work in the sense it was not done in the right areas with the right amounts and had no lastibility i.e. I had to return for follow up injections.

In short then Prolotherapy is depending on how many areas you are talking about, what your expectations are, are at best really on a short term solution to long term problem.

Neuro Cranial Reconsturction is another ball game, it is downright dangerous esp when the doctors don't even know themselves the full side effects of what their doing.

By the way the hell has not ended and might never will, it is still ongoing even as we speak.

Mua Dib

By hoops on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

Do you have the genetic mobility problem or were you injured? What solution was used on you? I can understand how it was done on the wrong area. I believe we used the same doctor. That is probably because he does not examine anyone. I did not get any stabilization or relief. Do not know if it was the solution or location of shot. If I get regular prolo again it will be under fluroscopy.

As far as neuro cranial reconstructuring. Thank G-d he did not try that on me. I read it can cause stroke so I would stay away from it.

I am looking into Photonic Stimulators produced by CTI and other companies. I do not think it will help but I am going to travel 400 miles in two weeks to try it since no one in my backwards state does it since it is not reimbursed by insurance. It is FDA approved, however, I do not know what treatment it has been approved for. Some companies claim it is approved for chronic pain but in actuality it may have only been approved for one type of pain like carpal tunnel.

By Mua Dib on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 05:34 pm:

Unless the tests I had were wrong , which may have been a possibility , then I do not have a genetic problem, If I did then it would explain why prolo was erratic for me.

I have tried various solutions, dextrose worked but it also coincidentally brought on plethora of health problems I had never had previous history of and still suffer from today , I still don’t know if it was the dextrose or not, it may have also been the lidocaine anaesthetic used whatever it was it made me very ill and I have not been right in 5 yrs since.

By far out of all the solutions ( dextrose,zinc,calcium and morruhate ) the morruhate was the best because it had the most powerful / quickest results, but it also the worst if it’s injected in the wrong places as I painfully found out.

I actually tried a few doctors , I will say one of them was Hauser but I am reluctant to say the others incase they are reading this and start to put 2 / 2 together.

None of the doctors other then the one who refused to do prolo examined me properly and both used questionable methods of making their judgements, though laterally I called the shots ( no pun intend ) .

It is hard to say what caused my initial lesions and again I am reluctant to go into the history here , there was a definite injury but that has been resolved long ago and I still have the suffer from lesions.

Don’t know much about fluoroscopy , it seems the sensible approach but most of the Prolo Hierarchy don’t appear to use it.

NCR is dangerous , the concept I think is great and I do think they may well have a point but the way they do it is not , I was just so desperate for a solution at the time I thought I’d try something else , unfortunately I was also ignorant when it came to the cranial bones so I did not forsee any problems until it was far too late.

Of all my problems this is the one that I think has probably sealed my fate , although I am working on it , it seems 50 / 50 at best if I can ever find a way to
restrengthen the cranial bones from what now appears to be serious lesions.

I haven’t heard of Photonic Stimulators at all but if it can replicate prolotherapy it has my approval , although it sounds more like some form of TENS machine.

The locations and conflicting ligament tensions or strains are the thing to watch with Prolo, I do not think the doctors have sound biomechanical knowledge of just how joints react to this stuff, and not just the lower but cranial joints too.

There used to be a guy called Park that knew a bit about the biomechanics and Prolo but I haven’t seen a post from him in some time .

It’s pity there wasn’t more feedback here really.

The one thing I think that holds back any breakthroughs for dealing with these joint lesions ( upper / lower ) is the lack of awareness / professional organisations we have for our problems.

There is no union to protect us from Prolotherapists or any one else taking advantage of us but at the same time there are so few other options that we are usually forced into taking them.

If any ones interested I did find a few interesting articles about research being done that sounds promising but I have no idea about clinical trials .

Does any one have any experience in regards to this ?

Mua Dib

By hoops on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 01:03 pm:

Mua Dib,
Are you saying prolo can cause joint lesions? I do not know what a joint lesion is. Can you describe it?

Write the person who received a dynamic MRI about the research on this website - Dynamic MRI ligament rupture conversation. They may be able to help you out on research. Can you let us know what type of research is being done?

As far as photonic stimulation I am sure it will not work. I am not sure anything will, but I am in so much pain I will try anything.

Do you know of anything that works on joint pain that will not cause more problems than I have already? Are you saying that prolo does not work?

By Mua-Dib on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 05:50 pm:

Mua Dib,
Are you saying prolo can cause joint lesions? I do not know what a joint lesion is. Can you describe it?

lesion means a structural change in body part , in our case ligaments / tendons.

Write the person who received a dynamic MRI about the research on this website - Dynamic MRI ligament rupture conversation. They may be able to help you out on research. Can you let us know what type of research is being done?

here’s one interesting investigation...
-------------------------------------------------
Self-assembling Proteins Could Help Repair Human Tissue
Johns Hopkins University researchers have created a new class of artificial proteins that can assemble themselves into a gel and encourage the growth of selected cell types. This biomaterial, which can be tailored to send different biological signals to cells, is expected to help scientists who are developing new ways to repair injured or diseased body parts.

"We're trying to give an important new tool to tissue engineers to help them do their work more quickly and efficiently," said James L. Harden, whose lab team developed the new biomaterial. "We're the first to produce a self-assembling protein gel that can present several different biological signals to stimulate the growth of cells."
Harden, an assistant professor in the Department of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering, reported on his work March 28 in Anaheim, Calif., at the 227th national meeting of the American Chemical Society. His department is within the Whiting School of Engineering at Johns Hopkins.
Tissue engineers use hydrogels, which are macromolecular networks immersed in an aqueous environment, to provide a framework or scaffold upon which to grow cells. These scientists hope to advance their techniques to the point where they can treat medical ailments by growing replacement cartilage, bones, organs and other tissue in the lab or within a human body.
The Harden lab's new hydrogel is made by mixing specially designed modular proteins in a buffered water solution. Each protein consists of a flexible central coil, containing a bioactive sequence and flanked by helical associating modules on each end. These end-modules come in three distinct types, which are designed to attract each other and form three-member bundles. This bundling leads to the formation of a regular network structure of proteins with three-member junctions linked together by the flexible coil modules. In this way, the new biomaterial assembles itself spontaneously when the protein elements are added to the solution.
The assembly process involves three different "sticky" ends. But between any two ends, Harden can insert one or more bioactive sequences, drawing from a large collection of known sequences. Once the gel has formed, each central bioactive module is capable of presenting a specific biological signal to the tissue engineer's target cells. Certain signals are needed to encourage the adhesion, proliferation and differentiation of cells in order to form particular types of tissue.
Harden's goal is to provide a large combinatorial "library" of these genetically engineered proteins. A tissue engineer could then draw from this collection to create a hydrogel for a particular purpose. "We want to let the end-user mix and match the modules to produce different types of hydrogels for selected cell and tissue engineering projects," he said.
Harden believes this technique may speed up progress in the tissue engineering field. For one thing, tissue engineers would not have to do complex chemistry work to prepare a hydrogel for each specific application; his hydrogels form spontaneously upon mixing with water. Also, unlike hydrogels that are made from synthetic polymers, the Harden team's hydrogels are made of amino acids, the native building blocks of all proteins within the body. Finally, more than one protein signaling segment can be included in the Harden team's hydrogel mix, allowing a tissue engineer to send multiple signals to the target cells, thereby supporting the simultaneous growth of several types of cells within one tissue.
"Our philosophy is to take a minimalist approach," Harden said. "Our hydrogels are designed to send only the growth signals that are needed for a particular application."
Harden's colleagues in the hydrogel research are Lixin Mi, who earned his doctorate at Johns Hopkins and now is a postdoctoral researcher at the National Institutes of Health; and Stephen Fischer, a current doctoral student in the Department of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering.

The Harden team's research was supported by a grant from NASA through the Program on Human Exploration and Development of Space. Stephen Fischer is also supported by a NASA Graduate Student Researchers Program fellowship.
Related Links:
James Harden's Web Page: "http://www.wse.jhu.edu/chbe/faculty/harden/g"
Department of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering: "http://www.jhu.edu/chbe"


As far as photonic stimulation I am sure it will not work. I am not sure anything will, but I am in so much pain I will try anything.


Do you know of anything that works on joint pain that will not cause more problems than I have already? Are you saying that prolo does not work?

Prolo definitely works for uncomplicated problems or small areas , but it needs to be done in conjunction with some chiropractic technique for best effect it also depends upon your expectations i.e. whether you going to be using your joints or body for certain sports or work that could make it worse or place it in danger.

Well you might want to take things from a different approach , the skull or cranium can cause a lot of problems in the rest of the body have you considered anything like cranial sacral therapy, rolfing or anything of that nature ?

Also what about neural injections , biofeedback, proprioceptive techniques have u tried any of that ?

mua dib

By hoops on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 01:09 pm:

Mua Dib,
I was severely injured by a chiropractor. That is why I have such bad problems. I have nerve pain from the instability which drives me insane. Stay away from chiropractors. As far as the photonic stimulator. May help with muscle pain. Does nothing for radiculopathy it claimed or joint pain. Will not help instability. The only thing is it can reduce inflammation if that is what you are suffering from. Another bogus treatment.

By hoops on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:48 am:

Greg,
This is a very brief description of how the doctors describe how ozone works- stabilizes weak ligaments thru proliferant process and the added benefit of stimulation thru oxygen properties.

If this is less painful and stabilizes weak ligaments than why doesn't anybody utilize this solution over the others? I am still baffled.

Look up Dr. Cezar Verge, the inventor. He also answers questions on a website. He even posted his e-mail on the web. Maybe he could address whether this could help loose ligaments.

By pam on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 04:11 pm:

I am absolutely astonished that I stumbled across "EDS" - I'd never heard of it before, but now after reading about it, I think I might have it... It's been a very frustrating road to find out what's wrong with me! Chronic neck pain, TMJ, left knee pain, wrist & thumb pain, hip pain, grip problems. Lot's of cracking, popping joints (since I was a child); hyperextensioning & double jointed; thin skin.

My question: How does one get diagnosed?? What type of Dr. should I see??
I'm in the U.S., 38 years old - any info would be great!

By hoops on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 09:23 am:

To all sufferers,
Stay away from prolozone treatment. It claims to be faster than prolotherapy. I tried eight failed treatments. The shots were 1000X more painful than prolotherapy, however, the aftermath was 1000x less times than prolotherapy. Another bogus treatment.