By Sam on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 05:44 am:

I was just wondering what you were seeing Dr. Faber for? What solution did he use? how long did it take to see results? and lastly, how many treatments did you have. I am asking because most internet sites say "healed in 4-6 treatments" but Dr. Faber says 6-12 to see something and 20 - 30 or more for complete healing. What do you think? Oh, one more question, what frequency did you have your treatments.

Thanks for your reply!
Sam

By Karin on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 09:02 am:

Hi Sam, Remember what Park said? Prolo is not
a cure, just a means to an end. I had prolo
injections (alternating up and down my spine)
every 4 weeks till November. I stopped because
it really kick in full force. Everything was so
tight and I had a hard time dealing with the
muscle spasms. Park said, that you also have to
see a PT. Since November I was not feeling very
well. The changes or not getting any more treat-
ments. I don't know. Finally I couldn't stand
it any longer and started my 10 treatment.(2 days
ago)(Thoracic Spine)
Look at the old post. Park explained something about the solution. He is right.
One person I'm in contact with said, it's importend which joint to treat next. So, you got
to know your body. The prolotherapist I'm seeing
now, is using the thumb method.(If the joint hurts
that's where the injection goes) I'm not sure if
this is the right way. I've been fighting headaches last couple of weeks and that was one
of the reason I went back to get more shots. It
did help. The way I look at it for myself is,
I probably have to get those treatments for
a long time to come. They call it maintenance.

Look at the old posts about the solution!!!!

Take care and good luck, Karin
My solution contains, extract of corn and pitcher
plant. The solutions may also contain various
minerals or an extract of cod liver oil.(lidocaine
for pain)

Now for your SIJ it's a different story all
together. You really got to check out the
delphi forum. Those people have so much to offer
in experience. The one thing I know is, that the
SIJ kind of have to be in alignment and then get
the injections for it to work. Got to find the
right kind of doctor, who understands SIJD.
Park explained this in this forum too. Much
better than I can.

One more thing, how do I make use of the full
page I'm writing on. I've not figured that out
jet.I use the maximixe button but it doesn't work
either. Need help there. Thanks.

By Sam on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 09:50 am:

Karen,
Thanks for the reply. I guess I am just impatient. I realize that prolo is a not a cure all, but I am hoping it will lessen the discomfort I am experiencing. I am also curious about the number of treatments others have gone through to see results. I have yet to see someone who has had just 4 or 6 treatments and were much better. I feel that this is a long process and as you said I may need maintainance injections along the way.
I will continue the prolo but would like to be seeing some results to justify the drive and expense. I realize that Dr. Faber is a very good prolotherapist and has an excellent reputation in helping people. I hope I will be seeing some of the benefits soon.
As for the page thing, I just write in the box provided and it does the rest. Sorry I can't be of much more help.

Sam

By Karin on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 11:32 am:

Then why do I have so much space on the sides?
I'm so occupied with my problems that I neglected
to learn more about computer skills.

Yes, it is exspencive. I pay $ 32,5o for each
unit plus visit. Most of the time it will be
around $250 or 270.

My doctor is going strictly the Hemwell
method. Her office is called "Hemwell Family
Center". I don't have my book here but I think
Hauser, Faber and the doctors who studied under
them are treating the joints pretty much the
same, maybe with a little variation.

Also go back again and read what Park said
about which ligament to inject and which ones
to stay away from it. He really got into detailing
that subject.

I'm doing much better with my SIJ. I feel a muscle is pulling here and there. It's just my
thoracic spine and a big problem with (T7).

Hang in there and give it some time.

Karin

It may be my PC who is doing this odd display.
I just wrote into the box and look at it now.
Oh boy!!

Any help out there!!!!!!?????????

By zack on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

Sam,

It's really hard for me to give you an exact answer , firstly I trust your own intuition ..

If your not happy then personally I'd change things, if you can afford to keep trying then fine but when i went to see faber I felt strongly about getting the morruhate but gave he gave calicum first which to me was waste of time.

You see Faber was reluctant to give me morruhate based on his experinces and the fact he doesn't like to cause pain ( something i think shouldnt be problem as long as it works right ? )

As you know he likes to use Kinesiology to test to see if pateints will be able to handle injections or not , again something I was very sceptical about given that I noticed there was certain postive negative pattern depending on when I had it .

Nevertheless against his feelings I went with the morruhate and the affect were VERY noticable almost instantly much like how i read from others before who posted here.

Compared to the 2 calcium shots the 2 morruhate had me feeling like Popeye , esp round my thoracic spine and neck ( the two areas he chiefly focussed on )
and i was getting this roughly x 2 a week for a month .

But ... and this is the big but I am not entirely sure how much of a factor other things played in helping the morruhate as the affects seemed to diminish the more I got meaning perhaps the calcium and morruhate worked very well together for me.

As result of this I am beginning to wonder if alternating solutions might be better idea ,and as I know no one whose tried this it might be an idea rather than stick with the same solution and get no results..

The other factor with the morruhate ( and this is something i heard ) is the the solution can havE such a powerful affect it can actually overtighten the joints and cause something akin to tug of war which is obviously not good unless your really lose and need a quick fix

In short if i went back to get prolo as I plan to all going well I feel dextrose might be a better opition given there's less risk of overtightening and blow outs

If I did got back to Faber though I think I'd try to space out it more just so I had more time to wait and see the results ( Ideally 3 wks )

Faber does use zinc too IF I'm correct and he did tell me it worked well someones shoulders.

I think with me he started on 0.2 and eventually worked up to 2cc altogther I had 17 treatments and then i had to stop because I started getting the same problem Karin did which in the end almost made me worse than when I started.

As you know what supplements / diet have big affect on treatment too but rather than follow their dietary advice i would ( as i do now ) keep a journal of everything you eat / take and find out what seems to have positive or negative affect
for you.

It's not that I think their wrong but I followed Hausers advice once and it made me sick so I know that sticking to one diet is something that is not as straighforward as some would like to think .

High protein diets especially can be really hard on the digestive system .

If I could given any adivce then it would be to learn as much as you can about your own body and use what the doctors say as guideline but not the bottom line.

Another thing I would strognly advocate is using precusors to hormones like Burdock , Wild Yam .

Some one suggested it here and so I tried , guess what ?

It seems to really work , It's not cure but it has defintely helped stablise my joints so who knows what affect it might have on Prolotherapy.

take care

Zack

By Sam on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 06:03 am:

Faber started with calcium on me also. I really pushed to have the morrhulate for the last 3 treatments and am seeing some positive effects but I don't know if it is the prolo or i am just having a good day. I am taking am HGH precursor to help raise my healing capabilities. I see him at 4 week intervals simply because I want to give my body a chance to heal and I want to feel some of the effects and secondly so I can afford the treatments month to month. I really feel the first 4 treatments with calcium were a waste so I started to count my treatments whrn I started the morrhulate. Did the prolo take care of your problem? You mentioned 17 treatments, when did you start to see improvements? Are you going to return to Dr. Faber?

Sam

By Zack on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:22 pm:

As of now I have an appointment to see Faber in early April which depends very much on whether I can find anywhere to stay ( I don't live in the US )

Initially for that last 6 treatments i was doing really really well and had almost instant results but it all went downhill from there.

I have very mixed feelings in general about Faber because of the mixed results .

I was almost at least 75 % there and as result of that overtightening i'm more like 15 - 20

which is not good and means when it comes to injections I'll really have to be careful because I don't think these doctors , know or care what happens after they've gone down their mind set of what needs to be done..

if it works great if doesn't keep trying or give up , after talking to others it is really not that straight forward and I certainly feel that a good relationship maybe better in the long run which is why I am considering my options.

I wouldn;t trust Faber or Hauser( personally ) as far as I could throw them and this above all else is really what makes me very edgy about going back ..

There are some Prolo doctors I heard who will cut their prices if they screw up but when i told Faber he started trying to pitch me the growth hormone your on which did not impress me.

If it sounds like I'm not thrilled about the idea of going back then I'm not really , he cost me 3000 because of something that was ( although I can't prove it ) was most definitely his fault.

He should of known or had an idea given his experince that I should of stopped or had break etc but in the end it was me that had to put my foot down even after it obvious my joints were being pulled and misaligned as result of the injections he gave me..

So I do not trust him , but he is cheap and he did help a lot initially ... which combined with my will , knowledge and luck might get he job done

This is why Park puts so much emphasis on working with PT , the trouble is even then it is impossible how to predict what affect the solutions with have in certain areas till you have them..

if you want my two cents i think the Prolo doctors should at leaast allow for this type of costly mistake but inthe end it works to their advantage because it means even more money to fix it again as in my case..

I'm sure this seems pretty harsh but I do not see why these people should get away with taking advantage of desperate people , and worse still it allows them to be irresponsible which means you have no platform to stand on.

It's bit ironic that they care what they inject into you but they don't care what happens after don't you think ?

I mean if they are not responsible then I don't see why it matters what they inject as long as you agree with it , and even if it did have bad affect ,as in my case you wouldn;t be able to really prove it any way ..

What about the other solutions , I know pg2 is bad but I read there were a lot of others like plant extracts so why does no one use them , but are happy to use things like calcium ( which to this day I haven;t heard a postive word about )

It just irks me because it leaves me wondering if there is something the good doctors don't want us to know , if for example there was another solution that cured people literally without need for repeated injections do you think they'd use it ??

And if there is nothing to fear then why not let people try it rather than regulate it between 4 or so solutions that take multiple treatments ??

I will probably go to Faber in the end and just be very clear about the areas I don't want done if he blows out my joints again I am probably going to need to be certified though , afterall i'm not paying him to make me worse and thats exatly what he's done..which to me is pretty disgusting considering how much I paid him or any one else in my positition .

Do you mind me asking where you live ?

Do you feel the hormone has helped ?

What other options you've considered etc ?
What what made you choose Faber.. ?

if you like you can talk to me via e-mail diminlight@aol.com , you never who could be watching..

Zack

By Karin on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 06:14 pm:

Hi Zack,

It's frustating not to get better and remember
what Park said, getting totally painfree is a
bonus. I really believe in that. I'm sometimes
wondering, what was worse a year ago or now.
I do have to believe this is working somehow,
it just will take time.

I'm dealing with another problem at T7 which
I think is either overgrowth of bone, compression
bone loss or what? MRI says: "osteolytic lesion"
Bone scan shows nothing. So you see everyone has
to deal with a lot of problems and on the end
it's you who is deciding for prolo injections
or "Not". Last time I was in her office (just
a few days ago, she ask me, do you want the
injections or not? I opted for yes and with
getting the adjustments from my chiro, which I
didn't do in the past, till finally I understood
what Park meant, I can feel I needed that.
And about the hormones...I believe you read that
a couple of days ago at the "Welcome Healthboard
Message Forum". At least I saw the post. I know
it's important to know which joint to inject
next and that is not easy. My doctor injects by
the thumb method. Who knows if this is the right
way. She goes strictly by the Hemwell Method.
I was told, you got to know your anatomy of your
spine and trying to figure out what to do next.

I know, that my spine will never be the same as
it was 20 years ago. At this point the only thing I care about, is to be able to function. I'm
trying mentally to prepare myself for never
getting totally cured.

Hang in there and don't blame the doctors, it was
your choice to get the injections. What else is
out there? Surgery? On what? Fusion?

Take care,

Karin

By Zack on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:49 am:

Karin,

It is precisely the fact the doctors know there are no other options that worry me at times, it's like the thirsty man in the desert willing to pay any price ..

I mean there should be some form of protection for parents don't you agree ?

Your reasoning that it's not doctors fault makes no sense either , are you telling me that any layman coming in off the street or a young child in pain is at fault when he pays and puts his faith in someone who advertises their service as a doctor and aren't doctors meant to advise you ?

To sam,

something else to consider to is the number of injections, Faber only does 15 or so which in some cases like the shoulder would not even cover
one shoulder never mind both .

If you think I'm lying see for yourself (pretty good site for ligament information )

http://www.shsmf.org/main/shoulder4.html

thats a lot of ligaments ,

you could argue well maybe he does the strongest ligaments but then whow can you see what ligaments he's doing too ?

It might well be he's just reinforcing the same ones while ignoring the rest in which case to me at least it seem the ignored ones will just continue to get weaker and cause more strain on the ones being strengthened until they get weak overtime too .

It might also be the ignored vs the concentrated ones are behind Karin and myselfs problems ( another thought to consider )

in that sense Hauser to me would seem a better option and as I heard he does morruhate too maybe the extra money might be worth it , if it means getting it done right first time and building it from there.

So in that sense i would not only count the injections ( sometimes i didn't even count 15 )
I would also try and watch or feel where they're going .

the bottom line and respect ..

if it's one way , do you want it or not without even bothering to listen to what i have to say then there is already breakdown in communication IMO and trust ..

The top guys are good perhaps but then as in anything there's usually price for it i.e. ego and that plus you dependence on them is not a good relationship .., if they're already throwing an ultimatium at you , do you or don't you , do or die then go figure

You can look at it any way you want , but if that is how they intend to be i.e. their way or the highway then they should make it clear from the start so you know what your getting it.

All I want in the end is for us all to get along and have healthy realtionship where all these concerns are being made aware so that someone is watching and regulating these guys to make sure that we are not being taken advantage of.

take care of yourselves, no one else will.

Zack

By Karin on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:47 am:

You got a point there Zack! It did bother me to
hear "do you want it or not". This last weekend
was the most miserable I had. The spasms were
awful. I'm feeling a little better now but
having a problem with the T7 joint. Constantly
feel the inflammation there (no other place she
injected) To me that can only say, it must be an
old inflammed joint I've had for years and gave
me trouble or the matrix is touching a nerve
which causes me to gag and sometimes my eyes are
all swollen and painful.I'm complaining and don't
want to do this but you see I've to deal with much
more than ligaments problems. Made an appointment
with an PM doctor (privat) because the HMO we are
insured with is a joke.

All I can say for us, we have to be patient. I
know someone, who is battling this for 3 years.
He emphazised over and over again to know where
the next shot will go. How will I know????? Plus
with the above problem I have.

Everyone have a pleasant and somewhat pain free
day!

Karin

Zack, what's wrong the way I post. Today I tried
to maximize the window..still don't write all the
way to the end. Figure out computers and right
now I cannot be bothered with it unless someone is
explaining to me. Any answer?