By Silvia on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 06:38 am:

Hi everybody,

Has anyone ever had prolotherapy done without anesthesia? I'm on my seventh prolotherapy treatment and each time I go my doctor gives me anesthesia. He uses Demerol and gives it to me with an IV. So far I've had bad reactions to it sometimes and have experienced chronic migraines and nausea.

Another very important thing I should mention is that I have also been suffering from a condition known as palatal myoclonus. This means I get trembling sensations and spasms on the roof of my mouth 24 hours a day. It only stops when I speak or eat and has been intefering greatly with my quality of life. I also get myoclonus on other parts of my body but the palate is the worst. Anyhow, the reason I mention this is that recently I have found out that certain narcotic pain medications like Oxycontin, Ultram and Demerol can cause myoclonus.

I have noticed that each time I get the prolo treatments the myoclonus symptoms seem to worsen. Therefore, since I found out narcotics can cause this, I no longer want to get anesthesia when I get the prolo treatments.

I asked my prolo doctor about this but he believes I should get anesthesia since I get so many areas treated. However, for my next treatment I think I only want my low back, right SI joint, and hip treated since they are the ones that hurt the most. Have any of you ever had any of these treated without anesthesia? I guess I should mention I get the cod liver oil (sodium morrhuate) injections.

Any input would be appreciated. Also, I'm going to post a message regarding my neurological problems with the pain medications under the "pain medications" title, if any of you are interested in reading more about it.

Silvia

By Steve Collier on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 07:51 am:

I have had my low back and SI joints done four times now. Three of the four times I've applied Emla (it's a topical cream) which helps deaden the areas of injections. It helps with the initial puncture of the skin, however doesn't relieve inner pain due to tenderness or other problems which lie beneath the surface. It is applied to the areas of injections 2 hours before the procedure. In my estimation, it works very well for it's intended purpose, and I would recommend it as a possible alternative to try. Whatever pain I feel during the injection process is very brief, and doesn't begin to compare to the pain it has taken away.

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 02:39 pm:

Injections can be done without anesthesia. Actually, I agree with you to target specific areas during each prolo session. I feel safe in saying that if you have a nice squeeze toy to squeeze during the SI/hip injections, you should do okay after the injections. If possible after the sessions, walk around for a while. This helps get over the initial pain and helps to develope a better tissue matrix from the injections.

P.S. what is your diagnosis in regards to ligamentous laxity???

Thanks, Park

P.S. My wife has had 15 prolo sessions spaced one month apart. All 15 were in her low back and SI Joint ligaments while some included other spinal structures. She has also had a discogram of L4-L5. A series of injections of garden variety proliferant/glucosamine-chondroitin/DMSO directly into L4-L5 and surrounding soft tissue structures. She has had injections into various attachment points of various structures in her thoracic back/cervical back/ribs/scapula. All of her injections were done via fluoroscopic guidance. None were done with any anesthesia. She has never used a sedative either.

By Greg on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 04:19 pm:

Silvia,

I have never ever had anesthesia for my prolo injections and I have been getting injections almost weekly for two years. The sodium morrhuate injections tend to be a lot more painful, but I have noticed that after a few treatments, the sensitivity in the ligament/bone junction seems to get tougher and less painful. My doctor tells me that I'm pretty tough for taking the amount of injections and the strength that I ask him to do. I say try it without the anesthesia, since the anesthesia is actually a lot more hazardous to you health than the actual prolo is. Pain sucks, but the pain I have felt from prolo has really been beneficial to me and has helped me "toughen up" more than just my ligaments, my whole personality is a lot tougher, and I feel that toughness is something that is crucial to dealing with our EDS. If your doctor does not feel comfortable doing injections without the drugs, I suggest finding a new doctor because I fear the long term effects of frequent exposure to those drugs. Good luck to you and keep going with the prolo no matter what, because I have done it all and it's the only thing that has ever helped.

Greg

By Silvia on Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 12:04 pm:

Steve, Park, and Greg

Thanks for your posts in response my question. Steve, I did some reading on the Emla cream and plan to e-mail my doctor about it. I really don't want any more anesthesia! I guess my doctor used it just because I get so many areas treated at once. Thanks for recommending it.

Park, regarding my diagnosis in regards to ligamentous laxity, well all I know is that I suffer from hypermobility syndrome. The pain started about 18 months ago in my low back and right SI joint. And within a couple of months had spread to include my whole spine, neck, shoulders, chest and ribs. It was a very scary experience because I saw over 20 doctors and was even hospitalized. None of them knew why I was in so much pain until thank God I saw my prolotherapy doctor. He diagnosed me with hypermobility syndrome. I'm not exactly sure what triggered the pain so suddenly, but now with the prolo I'm much better. I now mostly experience pain on my right SI joint and knees. This is still very inconvenient, any pain is inconvenient!! But I'm very happy about the progress I have seen. I just want my SI joint and right leg and knees to stop hurting as well. And now with this myoclonus stuff, well it's also interfering with my peace of mind and body.

By the way, how is your wife doing? I hope she's doing much better than before. Does she also suffer from hypermobility? Or was it due to an injury? I've read some of your other posts, you're really very knowledgeable on the subject, and helpful to others as well.

Greg, I believe your right about the prolo being the only thing out there to really help us. Prior to getting it I tried all kinds of physical therapy and just wasn't getting pain relief. I'm trying to start exercising again now that I'm doing better. But it's still hard because of the pain, and also my knee problems.

Once again, thanks to all of you for your posts. I'm going to have to tough it out without the anesthesia. But I don't care, If I would have known about the myoclonus side effects it can cause I would have not had it in the past.

take care,
Silvia

By Park Griffin on Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 02:04 pm:

Hi Silvia, I'm glad that prolo has offered you some relief. My wife's condition is purely injury related AND related to the fact that it took her 4 years to be properly diagnosed. Silvia, for what ever it is worth: Every bit of the symptoms you talk about will happen without being diagnosed with HMS!!!

Loose ligaments in the Lumbosacral area cause dysfucntion in the SI Joint. This dysfunction causes sciatica causing numbness and pain down the leg. It affects the iliotibial band whixh causes knee pain. The dysfunction causes hyperlordosis. The dysfunction causes atrophy to the inner core musculature and pelvic floor muscles. When all this dysfucntion occurs it causes mover muscle to go into major spasm. You may wonder: How does the pain from SIJD affect my shoulders, neck, skull, spine, and ribs??? There is a muscle group called the erector spinae. The erector spinae runs from the sacrum all over the place. There are attachments to the skull, cervical and thoracic back, scapula and ribs.

Here is why I agreed with you to target the injections to your lumbosacral area: No matter if you've become dysfunctional from an injury or HMS, once the SI Joints become involved, in all most all cases that becomes the primary problem. Using an analogy: The SI Joint can be related to the liver in a person with cancer. Once the cancer enters the liver it spreads everywhere. The same can be said about the SI Joints: Once the dysfucntion hits the SIJ's, chronic pain spreads everywhere.

I highly suggest after concentrating prolo to the lumbosacral area that you invest about 100.00 dollars into a good lumbosacral support. Where the support to enhance stability in the area while you concentrate the prolo in other areas of the body.

Here is the lumbosacral support I recommend:

http://supports4less.com/donjoy/backsupports/drytex-backsupport/drytexlumbosacral.htm

Note how the apparatus supports the hips laterally all the way up to your respiratory diaphragm. It also has a belt to brace your lumbosacral area from front to back.

I wish you the best!!! Park

By Gilly on Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 04:07 pm:

Excuse my ignorance but what is the SI Joint?
Gill

By Park Griffin on Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 04:35 pm:

There are two SI Joints (Sacroiliac Joints). They are located at the junction of the Ilium (pelvis) and the sacrum. The sacrum is sort of a triangular wedged shape. There are five segments to the sacrum, S1 through S5. S1-S2-S3 comprise the sacral surface of the SI Joint. S4 and S5 sling below held by ligamnets. The SI Joint and sacral complex rather acts as gear and clutch. When walking friction is increased in the leg you are standing on at the SI Joint. This also tightens the hip. While on the side that you are rotating the friction at the SI lessens allowing smooth rotation of the hip while you ambulate the leg further. The other main function of the SI Joint is to brace the lumbosacral area when you are bending over, lifting, etc... There is a complex force couple at action when bending or lifting. The action of the force couple is called "self-bracing". The failure of this force couple is called "Sacroiliac Joint Dysfunction". When the SI Joints sublax (partially dislocate), there is a tremendous amount of strain placed on your low back and mover muscles. Your stabilizer muscles atrophy. These problems lead to chronic low back pain. The medical community is starting to realize that most cases of chronic low back pain are caused by a subluxation of the SI Joint.

For reference view this site : www.thebackpage.net/spinal_anatomy.htm

Happy Hunting! Park

By Silvia on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 06:11 am:

Park,

Thanks for your recommendations. And what you say about the SIJ does make sense in how it can affect other parts of your body. Did your wife experience pain in other parts as well?

Also, that belt support you recommended, is that something that should be worn all day?

Thanks,
Silvia

By Park Griffin on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 12:13 pm:

Silvia, my wife experiences head, neck, shoulder, thoracocervical pain, ribs, chest, hip, and groin pain. ALL FROM SIJD and none from HMS.

Park

By Park Griffin on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 12:15 pm:

Silvia, if you can't keep your SI in place after proper alignment corrections, you must wear the support, until you can keep in place on your own.

Park

By gilly on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 03:52 pm:

Park
Thank you for your explanation, are you a medical man or something, you seem to have a great deal of knowledge. I am newly diagnosed with HMS after all the usual stuff you hear, "years of feeling like a fraud, pain etc!!" I want to find out as much as poss about this condition, understand it better and then (hopefully) not let it beat me !! I'll keep watcing and reading,
Regards, Gilly

By Silvia on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 07:18 am:

Park,

Wow, I can't believe how much the SIJs can affect a person. That might be the reason I started experiencing pain in all the other areas. I really hope your wife keeps improving, I will keep both of you in my prayers.

Thanks for all your information,
Silvia

By Park Griffin on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 09:21 am:

Gilly, actually I am a Clinical Engineer and the functional biomechanics of the human body falls into my "knowledge Base". For example, my wife's doctor is a certified physical medicine and rehab doctor and has a fellowship in sports medicine. Also of benefit to him is that he is a mechanical engineer.

Park

By gilly on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 02:34 pm:

Oh I see, well maybe you can help me, my suspicions are that my HMS really kicked in bad when I started the menopause, which makes me feel that perhaps hormones play a big part, possibly the decrease in the oestregen levels, would you have any thought on this? I have found one article re hormones & HMS but not too informative.
Gilly

By Park Griffin on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 09:05 am:

Gilly, there is a hormone called relaxin that can contribute to loose ligaments. On the other side of the fence is this: My wife had to have an emergency hysterectomy and the ovaries had to be taken, too. Relaxin is secreted from the ovaries and without them, relaxin is not present. A few people have had complete hysterectomies, including ovaries for pelvic hypermobility, but there is nothing to suggest that it works.

Park

By gilly on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 04:11 pm:

i went to see an orthopaedic surgeon this week for a sublux or dislocated toe because it is causing me problems, I thought he woulld just put it back but he says I need surgery when I get back from a trip in a few weeks, he says he is going to wire some of my toes, snip one of the tendons (or some such thing) to loosen it and allow my toe to lie flat, put in bolts and also remove my bunions at the same time, I have had a great deal of trouble with my feet, does this sound ok do you think only I have read that surgery is not always a good thing, healing etc, any advice gratefully received.
Gilly

By Silvia on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 05:54 am:

Gilly,

If you can I would try and get a second opinion. Once you put bolts in, if this doesn't help, I'm not sure if there's much else they can do for you. I had a toe surgery about 2 years ago, it was on my pinky toe. The toe had somehow managed to go underneath the toe next to it. And everytime I walked I was stepping on part of the pinky toe.
Anyhow, the doctor cut part of a bone in the toe so that he could move the toe where it belonged. But he didn't use any bolts. The toe just healed on its own, and thank God I haven't had any more problems with it.

Is your toe subluxed because of loose ligaments? If it is maybe prolotherapy to the toe can help. I'm not sure about this but it's just a thought.

Silvia

By gilly on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 03:55 am:

Hi Sylvia
Yes the toe is either subluxed on both joints or dislocated, it sticks upright and is painful, also 3 other toes are like your pinky and I am in constant agony treading on them (both feet) and they cause callouses and sores, been like this for a good few years now,I find it hard to wear anything but open toe shoes. He is also going to cut out the bunions !! I am nervous but feel I must have it done really as I will be crippled by it eventually. He says it will take up to 6 mths to start to feel the benefits. What is prolotherapy ?
Gilly

By Silvia on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 05:41 am:

Gilly,

Sorry it took so long to respond, the last few weeks have been hectic. Anyway, prolotherapy is an alternative treatment that is used to strengthen connective tissue such as ligaments/tendons. If you would like a better explanation for it you can check out www.prolotherapy.com or www.prolonews.com

You can also just do a search on the internet on prolotherapy, there's a lot of information on it out there. There's also two books "Pain Pain go Away" by Dr. Faber and "Prolo your pain away" by Dr. Hauser. You can get these at www.amazon.com or probably any other book store.

Or you can just read through the messages on this board under "Prolotherapy" to get a better idea of it.

Hope this helps,
Silvia

By traceyt on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 08:46 pm:

Hi I am about 2 years to late with this response but what the hay. My Dr. first injects novacaine into the areas he will prolo. It decreases the injection pain ( some I can feel some I don't feel at all) it has no side effects. The needle for the novacaine is so small it only pinches.