By sam on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 01:49 pm:

Hi All, I have gone to to Dr. Faber for 4 treatments so far and havn't seen any change in my pain level. I know he says it usually takes between 6-12 treatments to begin to know if it is working but I am getting discouraged and am looking for support. Is it normal to take this long to see results? it has been about 1 month since I started, he did 2 treatments the first week of Jan and 2 treatments the 2nd week. My next visit is Feb 1st and the 22nd. I know I am very anxious to see results but I want to see something to give me the satisfaction that what I am doing is working. Thanks for any input!!

Sam

By Karin on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 05:35 pm:

Hi Sam,

I hope Park can help you here. You didn't say
what's wrong with you. If you read all the posts,
you'll understand why it takes so long. I had
8 injections up and down the spine in 8 month,
and I also thought in the beginning it worked
to slow. Now I wish I should've waited in between.
If Park comes along, he'll explain it to you.
Take care, Karin

By sam on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 06:08 pm:

Karin,

What do you mean you wish you should have waited? I have low back pain (DDD).

By Karin on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 08:08 pm:

Sam,

If you have (DDD) in you lower back, our good
friend Park will tell you, also to look into
a possible SIJD. A lot of pain originates from
there. I just had to many injections to my upper
back causing muscle spasm, tightness and more
pain. Look at all the post and it will explain
a lot. Also 1 month is not enough to see such
fast results. It's a natural healing process
which will take time.

By sam on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 10:15 am:

Dr. Faber said that my SIJ was fine and didn't need prolo, but many on this and other boards say it is essential to look at the SI in DDD. Should I question Dr. Faber and maybe re-evaluate the SI?

By Karin on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 12:24 pm:

Sam, I'm not by any means an expert on that
subject, Park is. I'm just quoting what has
been said in this forum. I would be a little
more patient with the treatment.

Good luck, Karin

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 05:14 am:

Sam, when it comes to DDD, the patient's idea of successful prolo differs from the doctor's. PROLOTHERAPY DOES NOT GUARANTEE PAIN RELIEF. It never has and probably never will. Pain relief from prolo is a secondary benefit brought on by the reduction of dysfunction to a given area of the body. If all your prolotherapy does is halt the progression of your DDD, any doctor would consider the prolo to be of benefit.

The effects of prolotherapy unlike some procedures is permanent. Also, prolo is not a radical and or invasive procedure. Prolo is a very logical proactive conservative step. It will help build up the soft tissue structures around the disk.

Also, I know that Dr. FAber is a well respected prolotherapist, but I don't know all the procedures he offers. Does he do discograms, synvisc injections, glucosamine/chodroiton/DMSO injections. When it is all said and done, even if prolo heals the soft tissue, proliferant is in no way a substitute for the disk itself. You may need further treatment that Dr. Faber may or may not be able to do.

Let Dr. faber complete your prolo. Listen to what he has to say and go from there.

On last important thing: stay focused and assert your will. Look ahead to your next options. Let the prolo happen, but don't assume for one second that it's going to relieve your chronic pain. "Bonus" if it does, but you should be ready to pursue the next step. I wouldn't even consider calling the next step, "alternate options", because in my mind prolo is most likely going to be a, "STEP-A", in a four step process, for example.

I could go on and on, because, I am not comfortable that you know what prolo is and what it is not. I try to make this the last thing to consider:

You have DDD. You are having prolo for two maybe three reasons:

* REASON-1: Your DDD was brought on because of an
acute condition that no longer exists, but you
have suffered soft tissue damage in the process
and prolo being administered to repair the
damage to the soft tissue.

* REASON-2: Your DDD was brough on from a number
of reasons. The DDD is so bad that NORMAL soft
tissue integrity is not enough to stop the
progression of the DDD. Prolotherapy is being
administered to bolster the strength of your
soft tissue structures in an effort to halt the
progression of the DDD.

!!!!!! I KNOW THAT YOU HOPED TO BE ABLE USE PAIN RELIEF AS A BENCHMARK IF PROLO IS WORKING OR NOT, BUT THAT'S ASKING TOO MUCH.

Have faith in Dr. Faber. Ask questions and LISTEN to what he has to say. HE is going to be your best resource to analyze the success of the procedure.

Good Luck! Park

By Ian on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 09:40 am:

Hi Sam
You have taken the step of going for this treatment so you must have had confidence to start the course of treatment. Now that you have started you must listen to advice and continue the treatment as recommended. I wish you well.

By sam on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Thanks for the input. I was under the assumption of pain relief from prolo. Fabers book "Pain,Pain, Go Away" makes it sound as if pain could be eliminated. I understand that the disfunction is what is causing the pain and with prolo the area may be stabilized resulting in decreased pain. I am going to continue prolo and hope for the side effect of pain relief. Dr. Faber says it is typical for his patients to need anywhere between 15-30 treatments. I hope I fit into the 15 range but I will do what he recommends. Thanks again!!

Sam

By Greg on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 03:58 pm:

Sam,

If it has only been a month since your first treatment, you will in all likelyhood be feeling absolutely no difference because it takes ligaments a good six weeks to heal. That means that you won't get and sure as hell won't feel the benefit from even your first treatment until six weeks from that time. It took me 20 treatments on my entire neck to make me 99% pain free. It takes a damn long time, but Dr. Faber has an EXTEREMELY good reputation and I have heard great things about him. Stick with it!

By Silvia on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 06:17 am:

Hi Sam,

I agree with what most people say. You need to have faith in this treatment, and remember that it takes some time before you see results. I suffer from hypermobility syndrome and was in awful chronic pain, especially in my right sacroiliac joint. By the way, I also have DDD but my pain really originates from the SIJ.

So far I have had 7 treatments, however I get them once every six weeks though. With every treatment I have noticed small improvements. Most of my body is almost pain free with the exception of my right SIJ and knees. However, my knees have just started hurting recently and I have only had 2 treatments in one of them. My right SIJ is also doing much better than before but I still have some treatments to go. And I also intend to start physical therapy exercises again. I had stopped doing them due to the chronic pain.

In addition to the prolotherapy I also take some natural supplements that my doctor recommended. One of them is glucosamine/chondroitin. Has doctor Faber mentioned taking any supplements? My prolo doctor also recommends drinking lots and lots of water, but I haven't been too good at this, but at least I'm trying :-)

Anyhow, I hope you see some improvements soon. Also, my doctor recommends avoiding sweets (this includes juices high in sugar), high carbohydrate diets, and narcotic pain killers. He says these can interfere with the soft tissue healing that occurs after prolotherapy is given.

hope this helps,
Silvia

By Sam on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

Silvia,

What type of solution does your Dr. use? Dr. Faber uses a calcium based solution. I have heard alot about sodium morhulate (sp?) and quicker results is that what youve heard? Dr.Faber also recommends glucosamine and a diet very high in vitamin C. I also take a supplement with minerals for ligament health oh, I almost forgot... WATER AND LOTS OF IT! as Dr. Faber put it. I am just sick of the pain and want to see results so I can justify the distance I drive (400 miles round trip) and the cost ($300 per treatment). Dr. Faber has an excellent reputation but he said it may take 30 treatments. That sounds like alot to me but I will do it if it will help. Well I guess the word is Patience, something we don't have when we are in pain.

Thanks for the reply, all encouragement is appreciated!
Sam

By Silvia on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 05:57 am:

Sam,

My experience with sodium morrhuate has been quicker results. I started getting this solution on my 5th treatment, after I told my doctor I wasn't seeing much of a difference with my previous treatments. At that point I was also having a lot of upper and mid back pain. After my 5th treatment with the sodium morrhuate, that pain was eliminated significantly. Ever since then I've been getting my treatments with it and I just had the 7th treament about 3 weeks ago. And thank God I have seen significant improvements. The only area I'm having a hard time with is the SI joint. But this is where my problem started so I think this joint had more connective tissue injury than the other places in my body.

And I also have a leg length discrepancy. My right leg is a bit longer than the left, therefore my right hip is a bit higher as well. I also think this might have something to do with the fact that I'm not healing as quickly in that area as in the others.

This SIJ issue is really a pain, and with all that comes with it, it can be overwhelming. And you're right, when we are in pain it's hard to be patient. But what choice do we have.

But on a good note, even though I'm not at the point I would like to be in regards to the SIJ. I'm much much better than before. Prior to the prolo I could not even sit down for 5 minutes due to the chronic pain in my low back/SIJ. I spent about 10 months without being able to sit. I would eat standing up and spend the rest of the day either laying down or standing, no sitting down. I even had to stop working due to the sedentary job I had. Now thank God I can sit down to eat, watch t.v., etc.. It still hurts some at times to sit, but not as bad as before. So don't loose hope!!! Keep the faith! And follow your doctors orders. I was good at doing this initially and I'm still trying my best to do it. But since I've been dealing with a neurologic condition as well, it's been hard at times to focus on my pain problems completely.

Take care,
Silvia

By sam on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 04:52 pm:

Silvia,

I Just got back from my appointment with Dr. Faber and I requested the sodium morhulate. He ised 1cc along with his normal formula and will increase it slowly each treatment. I am encouraged that you found it worked better. I am hoping for the same. How long did it take for you to see results in your low back? Are you pretty much pain free? thanks for the responses, it helps to know your not alone and there are individuals with the same problem. I just wish we didn't have to meet in this kind of circumstance, only the Lord knows the outcome.

Sam

By Park Griffin on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 10:27 am:

Sam, sodium morrhuate can work wonders, but it can work too well sometimes. With sodium morrhaute, it can as easily "glue" you in place as "glue" you out of place. The nice thing about dextrose based prolo is that manual adjustments to get your pelvis aligned properly are easier to perform

This is crucial!!!

You must communicate with your physical therapist on a regular basis. If she states that you are out of alignment AND SHE SATES THAT SHE IS HAVING DIFFICULTY MANIPULATION YOU, YOU MUST GO BACK TO DEXTROSE ONLY OR EVEN STOP THE PROLO FOR A TIME. Some people have over done the sodium morrhuate so bad that they are permanently stuck out of place and will suffer with pain for the rest of there lives.

Dr. Faber is doing the right thing easing in to it.

One last thing: If you are not seeing a physical therapist on a regular basis, DON'T EVEN IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS TRY MORE THAN 3-5 PERCENT SODIUM MORRHUATE!!!

Park

By sam on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 04:42 pm:

Park,

I talked to Dr. Faber about my SI's and he said that they were good and that all that needed the prolo was my low back. I have DDD L4-5 L5-S1.

Should I be as cautious with the low back being the only area treated?

Thanks for the input, your knowlege in this area is phenominal!

Sam

By Silvia on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 05:18 am:

Sam & Park,

Sam,

Regarding results in my low back, well I guess I started seeing them more towards my 3 or 4th treatment. But keep in mind that I only get treatments every 6 weeks. But also, my main problem has been my SI joint, and the low back pain was there but not as bad as in the SIJ.

And regarding your question if I'm pretty much pain free. Well in some areas I am. See, my pain problems have been spread out in different areas of my body. My upper/mid back and shoulders are now just about pain free. My SI joint isn't, I still experience pain on it on a daily basis. But this varies, somedays the pain is minimal, others it's a bit stronger. But at least it's not always bad like it used to be!

And you're right, only the Lord knows the outcome of this. Turning to him during these times has really helped me emotionally and spiritually.

Park,

I don't know what percent of sodium morrhuate my doctor is using, but I intend to ask him. How do you know about using only 3-5 percent of it? Is this something your wife's doctor mentioned to you?

Thanks,
Silvia

By Park Griffin on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 10:30 am:

Sam, I'd be more cautious if multiple areas were being done at once. Dr. Faber is good. I'd have faith in him that your SIJ's are in place. The one "string" that you always need to keep on your finger is this: WITHOUT A GOOD PHYSICAL THERAPIST, YOU ARE THROWING YOUR MONEY AWAY. In simple terms, if you broke a leg and had a cast put on it without having the bone set, your leg is going to heal out of place. The same situation applies to prolotherapy. As the prolo sets in, you need to be going to physical therapy, or a well qualified chiropractor versed in manual therapy; so that your lumbopelvic area remains in the functional position through out your sessions and beyond.

Something to consider: collagen is a major factor for soft tissue and cartilage formation. Glucosamine/Chondroiton, can attract collagen to the area, too. My wife, too, had ddd at L4-L5 and L5-S1. One problem she had is she could not flatten her lumbar back to perform a pelvic tilt. Her prolotherapist added Glucosamine/Chondroiton/DMSO to the dextrose based proliferant. This was injected into the discs and around the surrounding area. It not only strengthened her lumbar back, it made it more flexible, too.

By Park Griffin on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 10:45 am:

Silvia, our prolotherapist does constant studying on his results and others he associates with at seminars and meetings. Although, they have all seen remarkable things occur with sodium morrhuate, statistically speaking, when more than 5 percent is used, positive patient outcomes reduces. There are many factors that add up to the conclusions:

1. Some patients have bad reactions to sodium
Morrhuate. It can be very "caustic" at times
causing morbitity.

2. The shots are more painful and patients get
discouraged and give up all prolo treatment.

3. Some patients are in too much pain and will
not or can not exercise.

4. Physical therapists at times find patients too
stiff to do anything with and the patients
rehab suffers because of it.

See, it's alot of little things, but they all add up.

Park

By sam on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

Park,

What are some good exercises to be doing while I am having prolo? By trade I am a Physical Therapist assistant. In my schooling we learned alot about lumbar stab exercises for back patients. Now in practice I use them all the time, but we do not see anyone who gets prolo and I am the first in the area who has gone this route. Many look to the knife and I have seen to many bad things happen. So if you could suggest some exercises I will know how to do them if they are common.

Thanks!
Sam

By jonbean on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 06:07 pm:

Well, Sam, how did your prolo come out in the end? I just had my 4th prolo therapy (dextrose based). My 2d really worked wonders (bruises appeared and there was great stabilization) but the other injections didn't "hit the spot"--is this usual?