By cary on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 11:36 am:

Dear fellow sufferers

Saw Dr. Radbill, a prolotherapist in Wellesley Hills. Like most prolotherapists i have seen, hands on evaluation skills were lacking. So i went to a PT who did a better evaluation of the entire spine than any of the prolotherapists i have seen. The PT found L1-L3 to be stiff and L4-S1 to be more mobile, and L4-S1 is where the pain is. I have also developed neck pain which may be compensatory changes.

The PT sees you more often than the doctor and knows you better. My idea is to take my PT to see Dr.Radbill and try to form a team in which the PT works on the underlying problems and the doctor does the prolotherapy. What do others think. Is anyone seeing DR. Radbill, and what kind of success are you having. Thank-you in advance.

By Greg on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 06:04 pm:

Cary,

I have been seeing Dr. Radbill for almost two years now. I went to him after all kinds of PT, Chiro, acupuncture and all else failed for neck pain. I was in terrible pain for over a year, with a lot of tension headaches, jaw pain, and extremely tight muscles. It took a while, but my neck is 99% pain free now, and don't get those headaches and jaw aches anymore. Dr. Radbill has also fixed my shoulder which was chronically slipping out, and we are working on my clavicles and upper back now. If back and neck pain are your main problems, prolotherapy is likely to be the last therapy you'll need. As far as collaborating with a PT, you have to realize that almost all PTs do not believe in the benefits of or have heard of prolotherapy. They will probably think it's BS. That's just the cruel nature of the medical profession today. Everyone wants to think they have the magic touch. Only one guy did for me, and it was Dr. Radbill. Best advice: communication!!!

Greg

By cary on Saturday, November 10, 2001 - 04:09 pm:

Hi Greg,
Very good to hear from you, and learn of your success under Dr. Radbill's care. I can identify with extremely tight neck muscles. How were you able to loosen them up. Since you have been seeing Dr. Radbill for almost two years, you must have a pretty good idea what his strengths are.

I am not sure what his strengths are as he injected my back when i had a hyPOmobile hip and the treatment failed. You talk about the cruel nature of the medical profession today. Well, to me its doctors doing invasive procedures without thoroughly checking for underlying problems. My PT is dealing with the restricted hip motion, which may be causing compensatory hyPERmobility at the lumbosacral junction. Now i have to go back to Dr. Radbill and try to communicate with him. Any further advice would be appreciated.
Best wishes for continued success, Cary

By Greg on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 11:37 am:

Cary,

I'm not sure whether you have EDS of not, but in case you don't, let me tell you that ligament laxity causes muscle tension/pain in almost all cases. The muscle is rich with blood and nerves, and recovers from injury faster than almost any other tissue in the body. The muscle is not the underlying problem. The muscle tightens and causes pain, restricting joint motion. You can work on the muscles all day and all night for years, but if the underlying ligaments are loose, you will simply be treating the symptoms and not the illness. The illness is that the ligaments have either become loose or have been loose. This causes pain over the ligament site and a whole lot of muscle pain too.
Prolotherapy takes a long time, and for me, it took even longer with even more painful, strong injections. But the results have been wonderful. I have a very good relationship with doctor Radbill; much more than I have had with any doctor. He listens to me, and trusts that I know what I am talking about because of my education. When you say the treatment failed, I wonder what you mean because there was long time when I thought the treatment was not working, but that it the nature of the treatment, it takes a long time. Best wishes

Greg

By cary on Sunday, November 11, 2001 - 01:19 pm:

Greg
Thanks for writing back. I do not have EDS. I injured my back from a lot of bicycling. There is pain over the ligament sites in the center of the low back. Dr. Radbill did 4 injections there but there was no improvement. He told me i had "shitty ligament syndrome" that i believe he detected with the needle. But i do not believe he ever hit my tender spots with his needle. And from what others have said hitting the tender spot is key. What is your experience of prolo been like. You definitely have a lot of experience.

Very glad to hear that you have a good relationship with Dr. Radbill; i would like to develop one with him. I am just unhappy with his evaluation skills. Greg, what is your education. Do you have EDS, and is that why the prolo has taken so long. Thanks for your support, Cary

By Park Griffin on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 10:23 am:

Cary, Hypomobility means limited range of motion (ROM). Limited range of motion at the hip IS ALMOST ALWAYS NOT THE PRIMARY ISSUE. I believe that you have the issue in reverse. Most likely your hypermobility in the lumbosacral area IS THE PRIMARY GENERATOR. Your symptoms as you describe point exactly as having a subluxation of the S3 segment of the sacrum. The effects of even the smallest subluxation at S3 can be severe. I would check out this site: www.delphi.com/sijd/start

This forum focuses more on the lumbosacral area, namely, SI Joint dysfunction. Formulate a post to Richard Dontigny in the "ask an expert" section and he will lead you down the right path. He has had 40 years experience in SIJD and has written articles for major publications and addresses classes in Physical Therapy at worldwide seminars. Good luck!!!

By cary on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 04:02 pm:

Hi Park
I refer you to page 147 in the Pelvic Girdle by Lee. She states that even minor restrictions of femoral motion can cause compensatory hypermobility of the sacroiliac joint and the lumbosacral junction.
Best wishes, Cary

By Park Griffin on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 07:14 am:

Diane Lee is definitely an expert therapist and has had great success in treating pelvic instability, but sits on the fence in regards to the percentage of low back/pelvic instabilities that are caused primarily by a subluxation at the S3 segment. One of the leading researchers in lumbopelvic disorders was initiated into the realm in this manner: 40 Years ago he was treating a patient who had been diagnosed with all kinds of dysfunction and was a manual therapists nightmare. You name it she had it... loss of ROM at the hip/bursitis, sheering at L4 through S1, inner core muscle atrophy, segmental musculature atrophy, sever tightness in lateral mover muscles, etc..., etc... etc...

After becoming dismayed, Richard Dontigny suspected that some other underlying undetected condition was her primary generator. His suspicions became apparent one day. The female patient, who was a farmer, fell off a tractor and landed straight on her butt. Within days of the incident she called Mr. Dontigny and exclaimed that she had been cured!!! She hadn't felt this good in years... He was skeptical until he evaluated her, but it was tru. She was cured. By process of elimination and hewr outcome, he narrowed down his search to the SI Joint. After years of research, he narrowed it down to the S3 segment of the sacrum. After decades of research, he has plenty of data that supports that a subluxation at the S3 segment is the primary cause of lumbo/pelvic dysfunction.

Cary, what came first the chicken or the egg??? Most likely, and I will submit that data suggests it; that an undetected, most likely ever-present, subluxation at the S3 sacral segment is the primary generator of dysfunction. Not your hip.

For reference a subluxation at S3 is called: a failure of self-bracing. Hence, correcting the subluxation at S3 is called: Obtaining a full correction to the self-bracing position. There is oodles of information and research articles at this site, encompassing many researcher's views: www.kalindra.com Happy reading!!! Park

By Karin Kaiser on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 10:13 am:

It was very interesting to read your debate
about the low back/instabilities. Around 1980th.
I saw a Chiropractor who treated the whole
spine as one united and also adjusted the
pelvic area with calibrated instruments.He also
abandoning the practice of taking sectional
x-rays, he would be unable to notice all the
"companion reactions" elsewhere in the spinal
colum.
He is long gone and I have not found anyone
like him again.His name was: Dr. Ward, LB,CA

By Park Griffin on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 06:20 am:

Interesting post, Karin. The question is, after receiving this total spine assesment, where do you start? Well, the safe place to start is to correct any issues that may lead to severe DDD or paralysis. Once it has been determined that no "openly" dangerous conditions exist and Lumbo/sacral involvement can not be ruled out. The best place to start is with obtaining a full correction to the self bracing position. Once it is accomplished a program of exercises is needed. Diane Lee has a great exercise program to stabilize the lumbo/pelvic area. When you treat the pelvis and low back, many upper back issues take care of themselves. NEVER will treating an upper back problem correct an SI Joint problem. After treating the low back first. Then take care of the remaining upper back/shoulder/neck problems.

One thing to kkep in mind. A womans center of gravity is squarely in her pelvis. A man's center of gravity is much higher placing much of it between the shoulders. Pelvic instability in a woman causes tremendous amounts of referred pain and dysfunction in the upper back / shoulder / neck, much more so than a man, again, since a woman's center of gravity falls squarely in her pelvis.

By Karin Kaiser on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 10:18 am:

So true! Here is a quote out of this article I
have."He began using heel lifts, a technique called bilateral force correction, and adjustments
with calibrated instruments. All these techniques
helped restore the spinal column to its proper
position. Dr. Ward determined their effectiveness
with post-treatment x-rays and m e a s u r i n g.
These are the primary techniques he still relies
upon to break down the fixed, abnormal position,
the pathology and abnormal synchronicity of the
spinal column".

There is a lot more in the article but more in
a general description. I have stacks of measured evaluations of my spinal column from the pelic
to the neck area. He was so far ahead of everyone in the field, and he also loved money. Left a small fortune there. Nothing on the SI Joint.
I know, you are more interested in the pelic
instability and the SI Joint. I'm battling most
of the joints in my back (wear, tear and laxity,
and now stiffness. I hope the last is a good sign
according to the book "Prolo Your Pain Away."
Next week will be an other injection.

Good luck to you and your wife and keep in touch,
and I'll do the same. Karin
Note: I wish, I could find another person with
the same problems to share our experience.
Who is "Diane Lee?". Would you be so kind and
let me know her website! Thanks!

By Park Griffin on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 09:08 am:

Karin, the loss of self-bracing ( a subluxation of the sacral segment S3) is the hallmark of SIJD. Be it from an injury or a genetic disposition to have "sloppy" joints, you would not want to wish it on anybody. SIJD left uncorrected leads to the following spinal issues: Excessive sheering at L5-S1 followed by Degenerative Disk Disease (DDD), DDD at L4-L5, exagerrated lordosis, moderate to severe degree of scoliosis, congestion and malalignment at various thoracic and cervical vertabrae. (Congestion is referring to inflammation of the soft tissues in proximity to a given vertebral section). Lastly, general segmental stability is weakened severely due to the stabilizer muscles wasting away.

As you can see, anybody can have problems with their entire spine without having HMS, etc... All that has to be present is Sacroiliac Joint Dysfunction. If a person has a genetic disposition for sloppy joints, and the SI Joint is affected; there is a steeper slope of dysfunction that one travels down. Without the added burden of SIJD, it's anybodies guess to what may get treated first; the cervical back??? the thoracic back???... best left up to your doctor. However, if SIJD is in the picture, none of the other issues can be resolved unless the SIJ's can be corrected to the self bracing position. This problem is amplified in women due to the center of gravity issue. Park

By Park Griffin on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 09:15 am:

Karin, Diane Lee has a new website: Dianelee.ca

I have two of her videos. Keep in touch! Park

By Karin Kaiser on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 02:29 pm:

Hi Park, You are so kind in always writing me
back.This is such a lonely forum. Just got back
from the dr. She treated almost the whole spine
incl.hips, SI joint etc. Since I received trigger
point injections also, I'm not feeling so bad
right now, but for the next couple of days I'll be sore.Nothing compared to the pain I'm suffe-
ring many times. The SI Joint problem started
a long time ago and I only have it 2 or 3 times
a year. It usually last about a week to 10 days.
The pain is unbearable, so I know what you are
talking about. Then out of the blue, the pain is
gone. Lucky me.I do walk against the pain.grrrrrr
The above post showed me, that you are most
knowledgeable in this subject. Are you a dr.?
Also, have to read it a couple of times. Still
don't understand a lot of things.Where do you
get the knowledge?
Thinking about your post, is like my old Chiro.
said, everything is connected. Oh boy!

I'll keep in touch. Karin

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

I'm not a doctor. I am a Biomedical Engineer and my wife is a nurse. I've learned everything sbout the SI Joint from two sources. www.kalindra.com

www.delphi.com/sijd/start

That's it, tons of reading and asking experts questions.

Richard Dontigny is one of the leading experts in SIJD and he's right!!! (That always helps!)

Take it easy!!! Park

I read up on Dr. Ward. He was very well respected. During his time, since there wasn't modern scanning as there is today, his approach should be marveled.

However, too many NSAID pills and pain killers are used in treatment today and docs rely so heavily on the modern scanning technologies that the work that Dr. Ward pioneered has slipped through the cracks. It's a shame.

Park

By MIkF on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 06:51 pm:

Does any one have any contact details for Dr Radbill ?

thanks

Mike F

By Karin Kaiser on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 07:07 pm:

I guess the post are going all over the place.
I'm reading more and more about what you said.
What is a "self bracing position" and do you
have any idea, where I can find any website
with pictures about our skeleton frame incl.
joints, ligaments etc. I used to have that but
I lost it. Thank you!!

Also, new at computer skills but that's how I
found out about "Prolotherapy." I hope, I'm
not to nosy, who is your dr.? What state is his
practice? I heard some people say, that the
treatments are very expensive. I'm charged, $ 95
per office visit and $ 36,25 per prolo unit.
For me thats about $ 270/312 per visit + herbs
I'm taking... another $ 36,00. All out of my packet. I figure it's my health and what are we saving it for, when we get older.

Take care. Karin

By cary on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 06:18 pm:

Mike
Dr. Radbill is in Wellesley Hills, Massachusetts.

Cary

By MIkF on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 06:57 pm:

Thank you all so very much for that information, I was hoping to find either Prolotherpaist with success treating shoulders or one with a good background experince in PT.

I heard doctor Radbill was good but another Prolotherapist who does reserach ( Dr Reeves ) in Kansas suggested a Dr Ravin in Colorado .

I had never even heard of him until he mentioned his name so I am planning to phone him soon to hopefully find out more .

Mike F

By Park Griffin on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 05:07 am:

Karin, The self-bracing position is when there is superincumbent weight on the spine, either from bending over or holding something, the added downward force on the spine is translated into the sacrum. The downward force on the sacrum through various ligaments causes the SIJ's to squeeze tighter together. The main "component" for the tightening of the SIJ's is that the sacrotuberous ligaments pull the SIJ's in. This added friction keeps the pelvic area stable when weight bearing or stooping over. The other main "job" of the sacrum is when walking or running. The SI Joint on the side of the body where the leg is on the ground tightens, while the SI joint of the leg that is rotating forward loosens. This is caused by what is called a sacral cant.

In mechanical terms the SI joints are a self- compensating force couple (self-bracing). AND the SI Joint is a slip clutch (sacral cant).

My wifes doctor is Vladimir Djuric out of Canton Ohio he is a certified physical medicine and Rehab Doctor with a fellowship in Sports Medicine. The prices you pay for prolo are very similar to what my wife pays per visit.

Take it easy... Park

By Karin Kaiser on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 08:41 pm:

Park, Thanks again for your post. The self-bracing
part I do understand now. Remember my earlier post
saying I'm walking against the pain? The downward
force after a few days helped a lot and eventually
up to 4 or 10 days the pain was gone till the next
almost forgotten episode.I think I'm doing O.K.
with Prolotherapy and there are a lot of changes
in my back and the last couple of months very
painful, and I'm truly hoping it will be a little
better for me.There are a few positive changes,
like I'm not wearing a brace anymore, muscle spams subsided etc.....but I know there is an
underlying problem with the joints. The feeling
of compression or ridged especially when I'm
sitting.
Now the odd part came today while exercising,
bending forward and backwards (always battling
a peticuler joint in the lumbar area,) cleaned some shelf, also some weight I had to cary and
finally it gave in.I was so sore after that.
The joint had carried the upper back for so long,
now that everything fell in its place incl. the
SI joint, I had some trouble lately, there was a
relief and it was wonderful.
But like you said it's not a cure and if I would
have known that Prolotherapy was available years
ago I would not have so many problems now.

Hope, you and your wife had a pleasant and painfree Thanksgiving. Thanks again for listening.

Karin

By Park Griffin on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 09:07 am:

My wife had a rigidity issue at L4-L5. The prolo doc performed one session of a new type of prolo. The solution was the normal dextrose stuff with 5% sodium morrhuate, but added to this was the following: Glucosamine, Chondroiton, and DMSO. This was directly injected into L4-L5 and injected into the surrounding soft tissue around L4-L5. One session was all it took for my wife to feel like her lumbar back was functioning properly again. Up until this point, my wife felt like her lumbar back was inhibited somehow.

One thing to note: The main reason why her prolo doc decided to inject L4-L5 is that a discogram of L4-L5 revealed a small annular tear of the disc. Keep in touch! Park

By MIkF on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 04:42 pm:

Hello Park ,

I just got the fax I was waiting for to see whether my suspicions were correct, what do you think ?

Rib Ligaments: costal - vertebral , facet

Thoracic Spine: Superspinatous ,
Interspinatous
Sternal Costal Ligaments
( Anteriorly )

Back L5,L4,L3
Supersinatous ,Interspinous,
facet ligaments

Right / Left posterior / superior iliac spine tendon attachments

NB* Both these two were done on the same day and were the last injections I had done before the 3 wk interval that lead to my current problems

Sacroiliac Right / Left
Deep /Superficial
Ileolumbars Right / Left


Thanks

Mike Falkenberg

By Karin Kaiser on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:57 pm:

Hi Mike or Park,

What kind of test did you get? Finally my
GP at Kaiser P. will allow me an MRI after
complaining. Will an "Ultra Imaging of the
Musculoskeletal System" be a better diagnostic
tool?

Thanks, Karin

Same name as the dreaded HMO and still no
better treatment. LOL

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 04:42 am:

Mike, Wow, what a work up! I don't have enough info/background to draw any conclusions from your post. Was your post a description of one prolotherapy session??? Also, what are your current problems you speak of (short memory!). Also, do you have genetic hypermobility or is your's injury related. Also, how long have you been battling with back problems. Thanks, Park

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 04:58 am:

Karin, Hands down I'd go with the MRI. An MRI will show any remarkable issues of DDD. No matter the chronicity of your problem, you always want to deal with issues that an MRI shows first. These areas left unaddressed may lead to a wheelchair pretty fast! Bottom Line: It's good standard of care practice that you have an MRI on record. Jump on the opportunity.

One thing to remember: Not all dysfunction causes pain or complicates other issues. Ultra Imaging may show things that in the long run lead you down wild goose chases.

A negative MRI should give you the confidence to push forward with obtaining core stability and chronic pain management. Park

By Karin Kaiser on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 09:45 pm:

Thanks again Park, for all the information.
You are my only link to Prolotherapy. I have
a friend who has the same problem than your
wife. I try to give her all the information
I have.

I'll keep in touch after I've had my next
injection. Will insist to keep focus on my
lower back. I know, that's where I've more
instability. Since May I only had 2 injections
in that area, and like you said it makes more
sense to work from the bottom up. My next
appointment is Christmas week.

What's your opinion on having a double session
in a month? The reason I'm asking is, we are
flying to Hawaii for Christmas and I wish so
badly to feel better. Do you think it will make
a difference?

Thanks for staying in touch. Karin

Note: I had so many changes last month. It's
a little better this month and I survived a long walk today. I love the word hope!!!!

By Park Griffin on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:17 am:

Karin, I don't think that doubling up is going to make a difference. Of course this is my opinion, but what I'd do is to have a good dose of prolo as soon as possible. Recoup from that. I would do one of the following before heading to Hawaii:

1. A good thorough therapy session mobilizing
your back, in addition add myofascial release
and medical massage.

2. Have your hubby get you an early Christmas
present and get the "works" package at a
dayspa before your trip.

Hey, it's better to travel to Hawaii with back pain and a smile on your face than with back pain alone. Besides once you two settle in and let the ocean breeze brush over your bodies, you'll forget about things for a while! Michelle and I honeymooned on Kauai. What a beatiful Island it is. Which one are you going to?

One medical note: Prolotherapy works very slow at tightening strained ligaments. That's why it is important to stay in alignment as much as possible during the courses of prolo sessions that you may have. Sitting for extended periods of time will strain the lumbosacral ligaments and the prolo will have little effect anyhow.

Have a great time!!! Park

By Karin Kaiser on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 08:25 pm:

Hi Park,It's going to be Kauai with our daughter,
husband and 2 little kids. They own a timesharing
property.We have been there before and it is our
favored Iseland.

I thought about what you said, the alignment
being very important for Prolotreatment. Now,
all those years my ligament gave away (supporting
the joints). Nothing in this world will change
they way it was years ego. Since I experienced
all those loose joints, and I think the injections
have helped me, and here it comes....b u t...
it compresses mostly on the right side. All the
pain I had was mostly on the right side. And
all it takes is a dislocated joint and all hell
brakes loose. I hope you don't mind, here is a
letter to the doctor (she wants to know what
progress I have made each time I've an appointment:

............I notice in the past month after
prolong sitting the joints are pressing on top
of each other. When I do stretch my lower back it
would feel a lot better, but I don't seem to hold
that more comfortable position. It all compresses
down again. A dislocated joint makes me feel like
my back is split in halve.
I hope you understand my rumbling.The doctor is
listening and jet not listening and only injects
at the painful side, which I truly think it may
not be the correct side. She always injects
equally each side. Now, you know my dilemma,
and I don't expect you to answer. Can you imaging
I would go to Kaiser P. with this? LOL
Remember Dr. Ward? He told me years ego, that I
have an elongated spine and I think that is the
whole problem. I know, I was born with this and
to many sports activity, etc... and falls.

Thanks for letting me vent!

Please keep in touch, and I truly wish your
wife is not suffering to much. Karin

By Park Griffin on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 04:40 pm:

When it comes to your SI Joint ligaments, I would have your prolo doctor inject the short and long posterior ligaments on both sides. For the prolo injections along the spine, you may ask if she ever heard of adding Glucosamine/Chondroiton/DMSO to the prolo solution. Michelle has had this done and ot worked great for injections along the spine. This type of prolo solution mix helps build your cartilage up again.

As far as the best low back alignment exercise you can do, the "leg pull" exercise is by far the best.

Lay down on the floor on your back. Have your husband lift up your leg by the ankle until your leg is raised up at least 50-60 degrees. (Don't bend your knee). When your leg is raised up in position, have your hubby pull out on the leg with steady traction. He should pull with enough force to lift your butt off the ground about 3 inches. Have him hold the traction for 10 seconds. Then carefully and slowly have him gently let your leg back down on the floor. Repeat the same procedure on the other leg. Do these back and forth 3-4 times at least twice a day. One note: The purpose of the leg pull is to rotate your pelvis in alignment not to pull on it. If your leg is only at a 45 degree angle when pulling, you will not be rotating the pelvis.

If you make sure on a day to day basis that your low back and pelvis is in alignment, you stand a much better chance at having success with mid and upper back alignment.

P.S. Have you ever had a Duane's Ono Burger???... They're pretty good. Actually, the best meal we had was at Smith's Tropical Paradise's Luau. If you have never been to their Luau you shold go. The fern grotto trip was a little boring though!

Have a great time and keep in touch Park

By Karin Kaiser on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 01:46 pm:

Thanks for the post, and I've been doing what
you said. It helps keeping my lower joints in-
ward. Had a real bad week with spasm all along
the right back side. Anything I did stretching
etc. wouldn't help. I was again so off balance,
it nauseated me. I know I wasn't supposed take
anti-inflammatory drugs but I was in so much
pain, I did it anyway, and felt better in the
morning.

After seeing the dr. yesterday, no more prolo
for a while. I explained to her the tightness
and spasm, which she responded with, that the
2 sides are fighting each other and your body
is trying very hard to correct and heal itself.
Myself is thinking, I had enough Prolo for a while. I could be wrong too. Do you have any
idea if the joints are pulling inward? Your
wife had injections on her back too but then
every case is different. Note: It also feels like
the joints have become ridged. It just doesn't
feel like my old joints.

To my surprise my dr. gave me a myofascial
treatment. It felt wonderful, especially the head and neck area.

That's it sofar. Now, what's new with your wife?
I hope, she will respond better to the treatments.
Like we all know, it isn't a cure.

Please, keep also in touch and take care.
Karin

By Karin Kaiser on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 05:30 pm:

Hello Park, Have you ever looked at the
Brain Talk Communities Neurology Support
Forum? Check it out: Need input on swiss ball
therapy and shoe inserts. writting by "Kimmy 1"
Date: 12-09-01

Karin

By Park Griffin on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 02:30 pm:

Hi, Karin. I'll look at the forum... About joints moving inward... Sounds reasonable. When you do the leg pull exercise, it rotates your pelvis up in the front and down in the back (counter-clockwise) direction. When your SI slips out, it is because your pelvis rotates clockwise moving up and out (anteriorlly) from the sacrum. When you do the leg pull exercise, when the pelvis is rotating counter-clockwise, it pulls the hip up (towards your head). This makes the leg appear shorter. It may not be a bad idea to halt prolo for a couple-three months. One thing that may have occurred is that the prolotherapist injected the iliolumbar ligaments too much. These ligaments become slack when you have anterior SIJD. However, this does't mean that these ligaments are injured. When these ligaments have been injected and tighten it makes rotating the pelvis into position very hard. When your husband does theleg pull have him pay atenntion to the subtle movements of your hip and pelvis as he pulls. Also hav him concentrate on how heavy your leg feels when he pulls. This is very telling especially if prolo is done on one side more than the other. The side that has the most prolo (especially if the prolo was done in more than the short and long posterior SI ligaments), when pulling traction will feel much "heavier" than the other side.

It is very common to hit the "severe muscle spasm stage". The only thing that is of help is to find a good general muscle therapist to get you through the rough time. This stage can last up to a couple of months.

The muscle spasms up the right side could be your psoas muscle. If it is the psoas muscle, the leg pull exercise is your best bet. Another muscle that can be at fault is the erector spinae muscle group. A couple of things to do to stretch this out. Sit up on the floor with your legs extended out on the floor. Take a towel and twirl it into a rope, hold one end in the left hand and the other end in the right hand. Now, pass the towell over your feet. To stretch the muscles, "walk" your hands up the rope until your hands are to your feet and hold this for fifteen seconds walk your hands back down the rope and then repeat the process five times. The next thing to do is this: Take the towel holding one end in the left hand and the other in the right and lift the towel over your head. The towel should be right below the base of the skull. The next thing to do is to pull the ends of the towel with your hands over your ears. Keeping the towel tight against your ears, pull up and back with the towel (mostly back, though; the upward motion is only to keep the towel from slipping off your head). When you feel your neck and cervical back stretching hold this for 10 seconds, release the tension for five seconds and repeat the process five times. After this perform the exercise one last time ,but, this time, hold the traction for 30 seconds or until your arms get tired.

Next, stand up and pull your arms back, elbows first. When your elbows are back as far as they will go, pull your elbows down and continue to pull your arms back as far as they will go (again downward and backwards force). When maximum strain is reached, blance the tension between each arm and hold the tension for 15 seconds. Release the tension and repeat the process, except now do the motion quickly placing your (elbows back and down) and (arms back). Release quickly. Do this ten times, then finish up with another holding for ten seconds. Next using a lumbar roll, sit down in a dinner chair with perfect posture for 10-20 minutes with a preheated heat pad on your back.

Your muscles should be stretched and compliant now. Start normal activity. Beware though, exercises to stretch these muscles out can actually cause a spasm when your muscles start to ccol. Don't go back to the heat!!! You should actually do an Ice Massage on the muscle. The best way to do an ice massage is to freeze water in a styrofoam cup. Then peel the bottom and most of the sides of the cup away leaving plenty of ice exposed, but leaving a ring of styrofoam around the ice chunck. The styrofoam ring will keep your hubby's fingers from freezing when he rubs the ice on your skin! The ice should be rubbed back and forth along the length of the spasming muscle. At first, the ice will feel cold - cold - cold. Then as your tissues cool down the ice will strat to sting your skin. About 15 minutes after you first applied the ice the stinging will go away and the area will just feel numb. At some point your husband will note that the skin becomes dry because the skin is so cold that the ice stops melting. That is a good sign that the process is about over. This type of ice massage is especially recommended if the spasming muscle is deep. A surface muscle is a different story. Rubbing a baggie of ice over the skin may be enough.

Though, after all said and done, your best bet is to have PT 3 days a week for 6 to 8 weeks and work on the muscle spasms. Staying on top of the spasms like that usually breaks the chain. Neuromuscular disorders can linger on long after the dysfunction has subsided. That is why it is so important to stretch, then relax w/heat and ice the area. This breaks the chain. Some calls this the "lassie" disorder as in the Collie dog "lassie". Dogs can injur a leg, but continue limping on it long after the leg heals. This is because of a neuromuscular disorder.

P.S. Be careful of the surf on Kauai. Getting caught up in a wave can cause major back spasms!

Park

By Karin Kaiser on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 04:42 pm:

Hi Park, I was waiting for your answer and
I couldn't have agreed with you more. I was
afraid to admit, I probably had to many proloinj.
To tell you the truth, I should have done only
the left side because that was the true laxity
side. Now to undu the damage. Oh boy!!!

I immediately tried the exercise and I had an
instant little relief. I don't know where you
get that energy to post and help people. You
are truly a (I'm sitting here and thinking of
something nice to say about you) Can't come up
with an appropriate word. Just thank you for
all your help. I'll let you know how I'm doing
with that exercise. Also, I need to know if
Kaiser Perm. will let me go see a PT.
How is your wife doing?

Karin

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 06:14 am:

Karin, I would make an appt. w/ your primary care doc as soon as you can. Explain that you have severe muscle spasms and can't get them under control. Ask him if he could write a script for PT to help you get them under control.

Before Michelle started PT with the therapist who was very good at manual therapy, she was sent to a muscle specialist. This therapist was very patient and caring. One muscle would be spasming so the therapist would work on that one, then this would cause another muscle to spasm. For a while when Michelle would go to therapy, she would come home with another set of muscles spasming. It took 24 sessions of PT ( 2 scripts of PT which were both written for 12 visits 2 to 3 times per week) to get things under control.

For the future, you are going to have to make sure 1000 percent that your pelvis is stable. Keep doing the leg pull exercise, but have your prolotherapist focus the prolo only in the long and short posterior SI ligaments. I would at least have six more sessions into those ligaments, along with other soft tissue areas in other areas of the spine as the doctor feels necessary. Once your low back is stabilized and you keep up on your pelvic tilts and abdominal bracing exericises, along with the leg pull exercise; you probably should be able to move on from the low back. However, some people still for the rest of their lives have constant strain on the posterior SI ligaments. In this case you may need to have a session or to of prolo each year to keep the ligaments from stretching. Remember, a strong low back and inner AB muscles are crucial if you want to be able to exercise other areas of your body!

One thing you don't want to get caught up in is chasing chronic pain up and down your back with a prolo needle. It simply does not have much success. There are three distinct curves in each section of the back. Maintaining these subtle alignments is critical. Your focus for care should be to assert your will that you want to know what can be done to maintain these curves along with proper disc spacing. Once you are at this point: Here is a typical focused attack. Usually people with your condition have an abnormal lumbar curvature or the lumbar back has a normal curve but is inhibited. A focused session or two of prolo with Glucosamine/ Chondoiton/DMSO into the disc space at L4-L5 plus injections into the adjacent soft tissues around L3-L4, L4-L5 gives the lumbar back pliable strength. A pliable and strong lumbar back is necessary if you want to perform inner core muscle strenghtening. The major muscles that are exercised to improve the inner core are: both multifidus muscles, the transverse abdominis muscles, and the pelvic floor muscles. This may be a 12-15 month quest, but once you are at this point, it's a new ball game! You can then analyze you thoracocervical spine as if you had a whiplash injury. You see, Karin, two things are problems 1: A poor low back and pelvis is like building a skyscraper on sponges. 2: The biomechanics of the low back and pelvis is not well understood in the medical community. The pathomechanics of the low back are understood even less. If you can fight hard and assert your will to have a strong foundation, there are all kinds of Doctor's who treat whiplash victims.

Take it easy!

P.S. Pray for snow in Ohio for Christmas !!!

Park

By Karin Kaiser on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 01:59 pm:

Hello again, and I must say the stretching
exercise is working. You probably think so quick?
At the time when I started Proloinj., all I had
in mind was to work the lumbar area but when you
are desperate and she started to inject the
cervical area, I didn't think much more about
it, and now I think it was a mistake. I still
think I need more support in my lower back (like you said) but I'm afraid it will be the wrong side again. Also, I'm not so sure what her thinking and expertise is. I'll read your post
again and digested. It's probably not that easy
to find a good PT at Kaiser. I could not believe
that I've found some relief in a couple of
stretching exercise, and I had done just the
oppesite. (OP Dr. Norris said, keep pushing your
back in etc. "LOL") My back is flat as a railraod
track.

I think I'm going to manage the week in Hawaii
without snorkeling grrr... and no body surfing
he, he, he.... Just like to be with the family
and see the grandkids again.

Will post one more time before we take the trip
and I'll pray for snow in Ohio. Growing up in
Germany as a child, the best present for Christ-
mas was snow at that time. Now we are in CA, what
can I say!

Thanks for your great help, still don't know
how your wife is doing. I hope better!

Karin

By Park Griffin on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 12:59 pm:

Which stretching exercise are you referring, too??? Also, Dr. Norris was having you work on a symptom! LOL having it "fix" anything! The medical establishment sends such a mixed message. They understand that hyperlordosis is 98 percent symptomatic, but when they are schooled about practical treatment programs they learn to treat hyperlordosis.

Remember when I mentioned about the corrolation of the spine's three natural curves, we should really add one more "curve", and, actually this "curve" is the most critical of all. The rotational curve of the innominate bone (pelvis surface that makes up the ilial surface of the SI Joint. If the innominate bone is rotated more forward than sacral segements S1-S2-S3 (which is the sacral side of the SI Joint), when standing erect, will cause hyperlordosis. Even a 1cm difference in structural angulation can cause: sciatica, groin pain, tightened hip flexors, piriformis syndrome, DDD in L4 through S1, psoas syndrome, hyperlordosis, head, neck, and shoulder pain.

Say hey to Lihue for me!!! Park

By Karin Kaiser on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 04:58 pm:

Hi Park, First a have to dig up my bookmarks on
Vertebral Colum and Muskulature, so I know what
you are talking about. It's funny Dr. Ward also
thought that the sacral (coccygeal) was an
important balance of your spine and gave weird
(I don't think I can print this here) manipulations of the whole spine incl. the above
names. It hurt like heck but everytime I got of
the table I felt like a new person but it never
lasted. So after 3 years and I also think to
many adjustment (left a small furtune)! I quit going there.

Comming back to the stretching. I do exactly as
you recommanded and it did help.I think the
muscle spasm is caused by the injection to pull
the joints together or ligaments? Almost all the
joints are very tight now but I do have to stretch
to get going in the morning. (Still a little off
balance).
There is one place in my back that gives me more trouble than anything else. It's either L4 or L5.
It slips out, then everything (upper back) rests
on that peticular joint. And a sudden movement
will release it again. I'll see the Prolo dr.
tomorrow again, probably for the last time and
I'll present the questions I have to her.

I was very happy today, could sit a long time
at the computer and write a lot of Christmas
Cards. Since I don't have your e-mail, I'll
wish you and your wife a Merry Christmas and
most of all a very Healthy Year 2002 and for
many years to come. Have a wonderful time in the
snow. If you ever want my e-mail just ask. I
don't know if this is safe or proper. Sometimes I'm a little naive, when it concers the computer world. Since you are my only link to Prolo and
giving me courage, and I'm afraid this website will vanish one day, I just don't want to loose
your contact.

Will let you know how I'm doing before I take
the trip.

Take care, Karin

By Park Griffin on Friday, December 14, 2001 - 09:13 am:

Karin, view this site: www.bonesdoctor.com/sacroiliac_dysfunction.html

Note the pictures of the person standing. The left picture is a normal. The right is abnormal. Notice how much higher the hip bone is on the left. Notice how the pelvis is rotated clockwise on the picture on the right. The leg pull exercise rotates the pelvis counter clockwise so that it looks like the one on the left. Notice also that the lumbar curve on the person on the right is "exagerrated" compared to the one on the left. Exagerrated (hyperlordis) causes abnormal strain on L4-L5 and L5-S1. Also in the picture you can see the cervical curve, the thoracic curve, and the lumbar curve. Then lastly the rotational curve position can be seen. As you can see, it is very important to do the leg pull exercise to keep the pelvis rotated back to decrease your problems at L4-L5 and L5-S1. Also, but not as important a factor, weakness from T9 to L3 can add to hyperlordosis. A strong mutifidus muscle (actually mutifidi) there is a mutifidus muscle on both sides of your spine, will add strength and stability of your thoracolumbar back. However, if your pelvis is in place and your multifidi are strong, it may be warrranted to prolo T9-L3 to add to the strength of the area. Typically though it is found that one or two segements are dysfunctional causing the problems. Many times when the prolo is done between T9-L3, only specific areas are really painful. T12 is a common one though. I know of somebody that had T9-L3 injected and T12 was screaming in pain from the prolo series. After a few sessions all but T12 was pain free. Then a few sessions later T12 was under control. Again hyperlordosis ia mainly caused by SIJD, though.

My e-mail address is parkay@qn.net. Give it a try. Talk to you later. Park

By Sharon Beck on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:40 pm:

I have a severe hypermobile SI joint problem. I have had this problem for years, going through everything from physical therapy to prolotherapy. I am now using muscle energy technique 3 times a day but my left SI is constantly rotating and will not hold. The doctor has suggested a fusion of the left SI joint. Has anyone gone through this operation and with what success. Let me know through this website or e-mail me at "petals2350@juno.com ASAP. Thanks, Sharon