By Ed on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 03:21 pm:

Hi everyone
What solutions are people finding most effective in the treatment of back pain. Here are solutions that are widely used:
1. Dextrose alone
2. P2G - combination of phenol, glcerine, and dextrose.
3. Some doctors add sodium morhuate to the dextrose and some doctors add it to P2G. I hear that sodium morhuate can be pretty caustic.
I would really like to start a discussion about these solutions. Is dextrose strong enough alone. Is P2G and sodium morhuate too strong. Please give us your opinion.

By Eppie on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 08:31 am:

Ed,

I had two round of "total" body prolo with dextrose, and saw so-so results. The last four times I've had the "fish oil" (sodium morhuate) with far better results. My doc said that one round with sodium morhuate is like 2-3 with dextrose alone...I have to concur. Please note that the initial swelling is much more intense with the SM, as is the residual pain, which lasts a few days...but, IT IS WORTH IT!!! Oh yeah, SM is also stinkier...don't wear nice clothes to the office. Email or post if you have additional questions.

Eppie

By Ed on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 11:06 am:

Hi Eppie
Nice to hear from you. It's clear from your experience that SM is stronger than dextrose, because of the initial inflammatory response. Eppie, does the SM make you stiffer, and is your doc just using SM alone or is he mixing it with dextrose. How often do you receive injections? On the west coast they do it frequently (usually weekly). It's done less frequently in the Hacket, Hemwall, Hauser technique, and I believe they use dextrose. There is so much variation among doctors in terms of both diagnostic and treatment methods that I just don't know Eppie. I guess the most important variable is the doctor's ability to get the needle in the right place, i.e., hitting the tender spots. What do you think? Eppie, thanks for sharing!

By Park Griffin on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 06:18 am:

Eppie, My wife has had five dextrose sessions with some positive results. She had her shoulder done during her last visit also. We have a 3 hour drive from the doctor to our house. She was considering the SM proliferant. How should she expect a three hour car trip to be like after injections. After her dextrose injections, she likes to shop so she can walk around. I hope your Christmas was nice. Happy New Year... Park

By Ed on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 05:13 pm:

Park
There is some controversy with SM. According to Dr. Thomas Dorman SM can cause complications. You can e-mail him at tdorman@dormanpub.com
Let me knoow what he says. One DO told me SM is caustic. Dr Pomeroy in Arizona uses Dextrose with a little SM. Park be careful. Wish your wife a healthy new year! Ed

By Eppie on Wednesday, January 03, 2001 - 10:52 am:

Park,

With the SM, significant inflammation is almost instantaneous. I actually have to keep my joints moving on the table to keep the resulting "tightness" (can you believe I'm actually using this word to describe myself?) at bay. I highly recommend a round of shopping afterward to keep the joints moving. The car ride may prove a little difficult for her SI (can't really move the old SI joint while sitting in a small car), but she can keep her shoulder moving pretty good. In summary, she should keep moving as much as possible, and the residual "pain" (which is the result of the inflammation, not the hypermobility) will reside in a few days.

Again, I have had MUCH better results with the SM. It is worth the extra pain to expedite the results (not to mention the savings on the pocketbook).

Ed, I have had several rounds of prolo with SM, with no significant or long-lasting side effects. It may depend on the individual. SM is definitely more "caustic" (as evidenced by the inflammation), but it wasn't anything my body or liver couldn't handle.

Happy New Year to all!!

Eppie

By pecan on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 06:45 pm:

I use sodium morrhuate and lidocaine and find it to be very effective.

Some people are allergic to it other than that you need to reach a high does threshold point before it will be caustic.

By Bridget on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 12:06 pm:

Speaking of the prolotherapy solutions, my husband had his first one yesterday, one long one, in the ankle, and not only fainted, but stopped breathing. They called 911, and he was given mouth to mouth, and he quickly re-started. Very scary. Anyone have insight into this? He used to faint with "needle" procedures, but he hasn't in a long time, and just had injections in his neck a while ago. Could it be allergy to the solution, i thought there was so little of whatever in it, percentage-wise? Do we dare try it again? This is SO discouraging, he is in major pain all the time, and getting exhausted from his life, it is the pits. (tried everything else) Any insight appreciated.

Bridget, Tucson

By mr g on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 06:42 pm:

what does it mean some people are allergic exactly ?

the reason i'm asking is because for 18 months i've been going through hell since seeing a Dr Hauser for prolotherapy .

I have two serious problems ( peripherla neuropathy like symptoms and gasritis/ gerd ) as result of my prolotherapy, or at least i'm assuming it was considering i got it right after i started geting treatment plus the fact i have never had digestion or leg problems up until that point.

If any one can help I would apprecaite it

thanks

mr g

By Bridget on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 10:05 am:

The only thing that comes to mind is that if you have a condition called RSD, it doesn't respond to usual therapies, and therapies involving needles are contraindicated. There is info about it on the internet. My husband never seems to respond to anything like others do, and it does get very discouraging.

Bridget, Tucson

By sharon on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 04:17 pm:

The Condition RSD or Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy isa chronic sympathetic nerve problem causing such things as pain, swelling, changes in colour, tempreture, and lokk of a limb or limbs (You can also get total body RSD) but like EDS it is mainly diagnosed on a symptom by sympotm basis (I know this from experience as I have had RSD for 5+ years and also think that I have EDS 3.
Hope this helps , maybe you could bring it up with the doctor. A web site to find out more info is www.rsds.org a good place to start.

By mr g on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 06:03 pm:

thanks i am not familiar with that condition
someone suggested it could be mal-absorption but
i have not tested postive for that ..

in saying that though the incompetence of the doctors here in the uk doesnt give me much faith in diagnosing even if I did have it, esp with my history .

thanks again

mr g

By Gwen on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 07:05 pm:

While browsing I found this article. http://www.backpaininstitute.com/rational.htm
It gives a very good discussion of the use of various solutions and how they act on the tissues.

By Christine on Friday, March 09, 2001 - 08:57 am:

I have had straight dextrose from doctors in Australia, dextrose and sarapin from Dr Hauser and dextrose, sarapin, zinc and manganese from Dr Hauser. The treatments with Dr Hauser seemed to be more effective than the dextrose alone.

By the way, Dr Hauser and my Australian doctor, Dr Dhillon are against using phenol in prolo. Dr Dhillon says it can cause nerve damage.

By Ed on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 01:34 pm:

Eppie, Christine, and the gang:
The conclusions i am drawing from your posts is that dextrose alone is not strong enough. Also one needs to keep moving after the injections. I would assume that means walking. Has anyone done flexion exercises (forward bending) with their prolo injections. Its suppose to incease ligament junction strength and to encourage the deposition of collagen in parallel to existing connective tissue. Otherwise it tends to deposit like a spider web.
Thanks for sharing, Ed

By Eppie on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 09:15 am:

Ed,

Yes, I've had far better results with fish oil and it helps to keep moving (not only in terms of short term pain relief, but stronger permanaent tissue). It also helps to drink a ton of water (before, during, and after injections).

What do you mean by flexion exercises (forward bending)? Does this mean moving the joints through their full range of motion on a consistent basis? Let me know...every little bit of knowledge helps.

Eppie

By Ed on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 08:25 pm:

Hi Eppie
Flexion of the low back occurs when bending forward very gently as if to touch your toes. It means moving the low back through its full range of motion in flexion. Flexion exercises were used in the double blind studies on prolotherapy. The flexion exercises are suppose to help increase ligament junction strength by applying traction on the ligaments in the low back. It leads to stronger permanent tissue as you mentioned above. Eppie, are you moving your joints through their full range of motion and are you finding it helps to strengthen them.

How does drinking a ton of water the day of the injections help. Also, how often are you having injections, as i am wondering how long the healing process should go on before setting it off again with new injections.
Best wishes for success, Ed

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 07:33 am:

Ed, another thing to consider is alignment. Ligaments at rest tighten faster and stronger than stressed ligaments. For example there is a set of self help alignment exercises that was developed by Richard Dontigny, PT. He is one of the only true therapy experts for SIJD in the whole world. His program is available at the following site Kalindra.com the article is called "Manual Therapy Rounds". Kalindra's site has domain problems at times. Try typing the IP address if there are problems: 63.97.145.150 Also, he offers advice at the following forum: www.delphi.com/sijd/start

By mr g on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 03:46 pm:

Does any know what exactly the complications involving the use of sodium morrhuate are ?

I got told by Hauser that the amount of injections he uses would not be limited by using this, which ,given the amount he uses make little sense considering how powerful it is ...

By Ed on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 12:48 pm:

Hi Park
Optimal alignment is advantageous to prolotherapy as it will take the stress off the ligaments. I took a look at manual therapy rounds and was wondering which of these self help exercises you and Michelle had success with. How is Michelle doing. Park, thank-you for directing me to the alignment exercises. Your kindness knows no bounds.
Ed

By Park Griffin on Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 11:30 am:

Hi Ed, The one where one person lifts a leg at a 45 degree angle and pulls straight out, holding the ankle. I pull and count for seven seconds and ease the leg down and then pick up the other leg and pull for seven seconds. I alternate this until I have done this 4 to 5 times a leg. Anything is worth a try, but the exercises that are done alone are not as good as ones you do with someone else, except, for the one done in a door jamb.

It is important to be able to "correct" yourself, so that the strained ligaments are returned to their normal position ASAP. Richard Dotighny recommends "self-bracing" 5 to 6 times as a preventive measure also. Always "self-brace" before bed. Have a nice Easter!!! Park